# Did Darth Vader want the Death Star destroyed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 3, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828 "2009-07-03T17:18:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/21 "2009-07-04T07:10:28Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > We don’t know how R2-D2 got the plans. They could have been downloaded at Genosis during Attack of the Clones and later discovered by Capt Antilles, blowing not only cover on the project, but detailed plans that explained to the rebel Senate members just why so much capital expenditure was being made secretly. Princess Leia loaded the plans into R2-D2’s databanks at the same time she recorded her “Help me, Obi Wan …” message, right before she was captured. The plans themselves were stolen by Bothans, a race that for whatever reason made very good spies. The Bothans delivered the plans to Leia or Antilles. One of the Rebel officers, right before the Battle of Yavin (I think), makes a remark along the lines of “A lot of Bothans died to get these plans to us; let’s make sure they didn’t die in vain.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/22 "2009-07-04T07:14:54Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > One of the Rebel officers, right before the Battle of Yavin (I think), makes a remark along the lines of “A lot of Bothans died to get these plans to us; let’s make sure they didn’t die in vain.” Return of the Jedi, Mon Mothma says “Many Bothans died to bring us this information.” (Regarding the location of the second death star). ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/23 "2009-07-04T07:28:10Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Tarkin isn’t a member of the military. Tarkin is a Grand Moff, a regional governor. He wore a military uniform in Star Wars so I think he was some sort of regional military gov. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/24 "2009-07-04T14:45:20Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Now we can understand what Darth Vader meant when he said, “The ability to destroy a planet is nothing compared to the power of the Force.” Hey! A lot of people worked REALLY hard on that Death Star! Not cool, dude. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/25 "2009-07-04T15:43:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Tarkin isn’t a member of the military. Tarkin is a Grand Moff, a regional governor. Doesn’t Leai call him “General Tarkin” in the first movie? ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/26 "2009-07-04T15:50:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Return of the Jedi, Mon Mothma says “Many Bothans died to bring us this information.” (Regarding the location of the second death star). Gotcha, and thanks. I’m still ruling out R2 discovering and downloading the plans “off-screen” at any point during the prequels, though. Now that it’s the next day and I’m arguably more awake I’ve remembered something else. When capturing Leia’s ship Vader or somebody refers to the stolen plans having been beamed/transmitted to the Tantive IV. So it was implied that a spy had stolen the plans at some point in the previous few days and delivered said plans to the Tantive IV. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/27 "2009-07-04T17:04:15Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > He’s the Emperor’s right hand man because he’s the other sith lord living. Remember there are only 2 of them that exist at any 1 time. Refresh my memory for me, for I don’t recall ever hearing that anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/28 "2009-07-04T17:49:34Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Refresh my memory for me, for I don’t recall ever hearing that anywhere. As far as I know, this gets exactly one reference, near the end of _Phantom Menace_. Yoda and Bad-Ass Motherfucker (as I recall) are discussing the Sith and Yoda says there are always two - “no more, no less”. It felt contrived and pointless, and arguably it was contradicted in the next two films. In other words - classic Lucas. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/29 "2009-07-04T18:00:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > As far as I know, this gets exactly one reference, near the end of _Phantom Menace_. Yoda and Bad-Ass Motherfucker (as I recall) are discussing the Sith and Yoda says there are always two - “no more, no less”. > > It felt contrived and pointless, and arguably it was contradicted in the next two films. In other words - classic Lucas. That is confusing. When I would hear “Darth Vader, Lord Of The Sith”, the presumption was always with me that “The Sith” were a people/race/planet that had powerful rulers (Lords) like Vader. I guess I don’t even know what a Sith Lord really is, or does, even. Except fight Jedi and serve at the behest of the Emperor (himself a Sith Lord!!??!!??). ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/30 "2009-07-04T18:10:59Z")
[More than you ever wanted to know about the Sith.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sith) ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/31 "2009-07-04T18:23:18Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > [More than you ever wanted to know about the Sith.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sith) Nice! So really then, Darth Vader was _not_ a Sith Lord. There can be only two, Master and Apprentice. The Emperor was the Master, Vader the Apprentice. So Vader couldn’t be a Lord over the only other Sith (The Emperor)! Sorry for the hijack, OP. You have an interesting theory. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/32 "2009-07-04T18:29:00Z")
The problem with such things, ie “Only One Master” is that if something external happens to kill the Master, then important knowledge is lost. Perchance if both are lost to external causes, their line does not continue. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/33 "2009-07-04T19:33:31Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > [More than you ever wanted to know about the Sith.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sith) From your cite: > [@](#): > > The ship [filled with rogue Jedi] crashed on the then-undiscovered planet of Korriban, where they found a race of Force-using reptillian sentients known as the Sith. Though the rogue Jedi were unfamiliar with the Siths’ powers, they easily conquered the planet and proclaimed themselves the rulers of the Sith, hence the title “Sith Lord”. Seriously?? Is this canon? Because that’s almost as lame as midichlorians. I always thought “the Sith” referred to a mysterious lore of arcane dark arts (or a secret organization devoted to the same–something along those lines). I never knew it referred to an actual species of aliens. But then, I’ve only ever watched the movies and have remained as ignorant as possible of the Expanded Universe. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/34 "2009-07-04T23:21:33Z")
> [@Gotterfunken](#): > > From your cite: Seriously?? Is this canon? Because that’s almost as lame as midichlorians. I don’t know who specifically spelled it out, but it was explained in one of the EU novels (one of Timothy Zahn’s books, possibly) in the late '80s or early '90s. It was in the trilogy where Luke is beginning to rebuild the Jedi order, and if I remember correctly he chooses to establish his academy on Korriban, which has been long abandoned. The race of the Sith has long ago died off, but the structures they built are still there, still infused with the power of The Force. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/35 "2009-07-05T00:25:28Z")
The fact that Vader is more of a thug in Episode 4 and his role isn’t clearly defined is just first-movie weirdness. Lucas obviously hadn’t decided exactly how many details to fill in yet. As for the Sith, yes, they were originally a race, but the humans (and other species) who learned the dark side of the Force also started calling themselves Sith. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/36 "2009-07-05T01:49:39Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Doesn’t Leai call him “General Tarkin” in the first movie? She says, “Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader’s leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board.” ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/37 "2009-07-05T02:17:28Z")
Here’s a thought: by the time Ep. IV rolls around, Darth Vader is kind of “at loose ends.” The Jedi are pretty much ancient history, The Empire is fairly secure, and the nascent Rebellion is being handled by “secular” authorities, a.k.a. Imperial Fleet and Grand Moff Tarkin. Because while Vader was out exterminating the Jedi remnant, Tarkin was elbows deep in establishing/building The Empire, giving him great insight in its day-to-day operations, and all the various top-tier people who Make Things Happen. Vader doesn’t have the experience/inclination to make a super-project like The Death Star happen. Tarkin does. This puts Tarkin’s “star” in ascension with Papa Palpatine, and Vader relegated to housekeeping scutwork, like running down Rebel spies. If you notice in Ep. IV, a lot of Imperials are pretty bold with Vader; on the Tantive IV one of them actively disputes him, and on the Death Star, another openly mocks him (albeit briefly). There’s none of the “Oh, shit!” vibe we see from others towards Vader in Eps. V and VI. So the Great Space Kablooey of Yavin certainly did work to Vader’s benefit: the top brass is dead, the super-weapon is discredited (being “bad guys,” they of course immediately repeat the same mistake), and now Papa Palpatine has to turn once again to his #1 Ass-Kicker/Name Taker. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/38 "2009-07-05T04:09:10Z")
That seems a fair explanation. I had the sense in Ep. IV that Vader was the Emperor’s personal representative on the Death Star, but that Tarkin was the top guy with command authority on the station (and in the region; a grand moff is a regional governor, almost like a viceroy, IIRC). Tarkin had given the Emperor a very powerful new weapon and was feeling his oats, including having the confidence to tell Vader to stop Force-choking one of his mooks. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/39 "2009-07-05T05:24:33Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The problem with such things, ie “Only One Master” is that if something external happens to kill the Master, then important knowledge is lost. Perchance if both are lost to external causes, their line does not continue. It might have a dry spell, but I would think the Master would have some kind of “How’d You Like To Gain Unlimited Power?” hologram secreted away that, eventually, would be found by someone who would get things going again. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2009, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828/40 "2009-07-05T06:37:57Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Tarkin had given the Emperor a very powerful new weapon and was feeling his oats, including having the confidence to tell Vader to stop Force-choking one of his mooks. Check out [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nGP1EdqyVY&feature=PlayList&p=52051D01F27DA049&index=3) clip. The “conference” starts at 4:07. Vader begins Force-choking Mr. Mouth around 5:35. But check out the other commander’s reaction at 5:40. Kind of a surprised reaction, IMO, almost as if they all kinda shared Mr. Mouth’s skepticism of Vader’s abilities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-darth-vader-want-the-death-star-destroyed/501828.md?page=3)