# Did Diebold throw Florida for Bush in 2000? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366 "2004-08-18T07:19:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/1 "2004-08-18T07:19:22Z")
Okay, this isn’t exactly a timely topic, but it’s one of those things that have been bugging me for a while; I would have started a thread about this before, but I couldn’t track down a solid reference until tonight… And with that long-winded explanation out of the way, I’m curious as to whether the collective SDMB Great Debates Hive Mind believes there’s any merit to the theory that Gore lost Florida in the 2000 elections because of e-voting shenanigans from Diebold voting machines. To wit: > [@](#): > > [**The Diebold Memos’ Smoking Gun: Volusia County Memos Disclose Election 2000 Vote Fraud**](http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00211.htm) > > _“DELAND, Fla., Nov. 11 - Something very strange happened on election night to Deborah Tannenbaum, a Democratic Party official in Volusia County. At 10 p.m., she called the county elections department and learned that Al Gore was leading George W. Bush 83,000 votes to 62,000. But when she checked the county’s Web site for an update half an hour later, she found a startling development: Gore’s count had dropped by 16,000 votes, while an obscure Socialist candidate had picked up 10,000–all because of a single precinct with only 600 voters.”_ > – Washington Post Sunday , November 12, 2000 ; Page A22 > > Yes. Something very strange happened in Volusia County on election night November 2000, the night that first Gore won Florida, then Bush, and then as everybody can so well remember there was a tie. > > Something strange indeed. But what exactly? In the above report ( click for full version), written days after the election, hotshot Washington Post reporter Dana Milbank goes on to attribute the strange 16,022 negative vote tally from Volusia’s precinct 216 to an apparently innocent cause. > > “…. faulty ‘memory cards’ in the machines caused the 16,000-vote disappearance on election night. The glitch was soon fixed,” he wrote. > > But thanks to recent investigations into Black Box Voting by Washington State writer Bev Harris we now know this explanation is not correct. In fact it is not even in the ballpark. > [@](#): > > What we know from the memos can be summarised as follows: > > - Two memory cards were uploaded from Volusia Couny’s precinct 216, the second one was loaded sometime close to 2am in the morning. It automatically replaced the first card’s results and **reduced Gore’s total by 16,022 votes and added several thousand votes to Bush** plus a variety of minor candidates; > - Both memory cards loaded into the system clean and without errors, indicating (contrary to the official line) that they were not faulty; > - After the error was noticed the original card was reloaded and the mistake was rectified; > - The error was introduced in such a way that the total number of votes remained unchanged (again something that could not happen by chance.); > - According to the technical boffins, the chance of the memory card being corrupted and still passing the checksum error test are less than 60,000 to 1; > - The technical managers at Diebold Election Systems considered it a **reasonable possibility** that the second card was part of **deliberate conspiracy to rig the election results.** Needless to say, there’s a huge pile of supporting evidence at the site, both from Diebold memos and quickly-forgotten American news reports. I don’t see anything on the site to indicate the author is a crank, but I’m not that familiar with New Zealand journalism sources. Given how much controversy electronic voting in general (and Diebold voting machines in particular) has gotten recently, did Al Gore really lose 16,000+ votes from election skullduggery? Can we look back with 20/20 hindsight and determine if the whole Florida 2000 fiasco was an artificially-induced “tie”? Or has the article’s premise already been debunked by others? ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/2 "2004-08-18T22:43:46Z")
Well, before someone else says it, I’ll say it. Even with any rigged count, skullduggery, malfeasance, or incompetence, it has since become clear that Al Gore won Florida. I don’t know many people – even serious Bushies – who claim that it was right that Bush was awarded the win there. Most of the Bushies I know are also big into states’ rights. So, having acknowledged that, I’d like to propose a refinement to your question: **Given the evidence at hand, was the discrepancy in the Diebold machines caused maliciously, or accidentally? If maliciously, by whom?** Is that a fair summation of the question at hand? ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/3 "2004-08-19T01:34:36Z")
[QUOTE=Jurph] Even with any rigged count, skullduggery, malfeasance, or incompetence, it has since become clear that Al Gore won Florida.\*\* Clear to who? **I don’t know many people – even serious Bushies – who claim that it was right that Bush was awarded the win there.** You’re joking, right? I must be getting wooshed here … ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/4 "2004-08-19T01:39:51Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > Well, before someone else says it, I’ll say it. Even with any rigged count, skullduggery, malfeasance, or incompetence, it has since become clear that Al Gore won Florida. I don’t know many people – even serious Bushies – who claim that it was right that Bush was awarded the win there. Most of the Bushies I know are also big into states’ rights. “How could Bush have won?? None of MY friends voted for him…” 😕 You are seriously deluded if you think that only the deluded feel Bush won the election. I don’t consider myself a ‘bushy’ by any stretch of the imagination and I think he won. I don’t buy rjungs theories either but he knows that already as this has to be at least the 4th thread like this he’s done. And I prolly missed a few. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/5 "2004-08-19T02:19:52Z")
All’s fair in love, war, and politics. If someone tampered with the Diebold memory cards to give Bush the win, which Diebold itself considers a reasonable possibility, more power to them. If they can do it again next election, they deserve to win. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/6 "2004-08-19T02:25:14Z")
This is so ridiculous. Bush got more votes in Florida than Gore did in Y2K. Just because you don’t like it don’t mean it ain’t so. For a primer on Florida elections, see Carl Hiaasen’s book: “Paradise Screwed”. Pages 287 through 304 deal specifically with elections, all _before_ the Y2K presidental race. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/7 "2004-08-19T03:04:15Z")
A lot of right-wingers have called Michael Moore a liar, but he did have all factual allegations made in _F911_ vetted by a team of lawyers and a former _New Yorker_ fact-checker before releasing the film, and he has provided cites for all of them on his website. From : > [@](#): > > **FAHRENHEIT 9/11: Gore got the most votes in 2000.** > > [A] consortium [Tribune Co., owner of the Times; Associated Press; CNN; the New York Times; the Palm Beach Post; the St. Petersburg Times; the Wall Street Journal; and the Washington Post] hired the NORC [National Opinion Research Center, a nonpartisan research organization affiliated with the University of Chicago] to view each untallied ballot and gather information about how it was marked. The media organizations then used computers to sort and tabulate votes, based on varying scenarios that had been raised during the post-election scramble in Florida. Under any standard that tabulated all disputed votes statewide, Mr. Gore erased Mr. Bush’s advantage and emerged with a tiny lead that ranged from 42 to 171 votes. Donald Lambro, “Recount Provides No Firm Answers,” Washington Times, November 12, 2001. > > “The review found that the result would have been different if every canvassing board in every county had examined every undervote, a situation that no election or court authority had ordered. Gore had called for such a statewide manual recount if Bush would agree, but Bush rejected the idea and there was no mechanism in place to conduct one.” Martin Merzer, “Review of Ballots Finds Bush’s Win Would Have Endured Manual Recount,” Miami Herald, April 4, 2001. > > See also, the following article by one of the Washington Post journalists who ran the consortium recount. The relevant point is made in Table I of the article. [http://www.aei.org/docLib/20040526\_KeatingPaper.pdf](http://www.aei.org/docLib/20040526_KeatingPaper.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/8 "2004-08-19T03:06:13Z")
Sorry, here’s the link: [http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/index.php?id=16](http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/index.php?id=16) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/9 "2004-08-19T03:36:44Z")
So, your impartial sources are provided by Michael Moore? Puh-_leeze_! Look, you guys would do a lot better if you’d quit whining about elections lost, Bush’s failings, etc., and start telling about any strong points that Kerry might have to offer. '00 is done. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/10 "2004-08-19T04:23:42Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > So, your impartial sources are provided by Michael Moore? Puh-_leeze_! Wow, I never realized Michael Moore was so powerful that he can turn a news story false just by citing it! ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/11 "2004-08-19T04:26:31Z")
> [@](#): > > So, your impartial sources are provided by Michael Moore? Puh-leeze! That’s your refutation? I agree that this debate shouldn’t still be going on though. It’s been well documented that Gore got the most actual votes in Florida, and I’ve not seen anyone produce any evidence contrary to this. Add in the tens of thousands of disenfranchised voters from democratic demographics and the state would’ve been fairly solidly for Gore. ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/12 "2004-08-19T04:27:55Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I don’t consider myself a ‘bushy’ by any stretch of the imagination and I think he won. Great comeback! Case dismissed. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/13 "2004-08-19T04:32:21Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > So, your impartial sources are provided by Michael Moore? Puh-_leeze_! > > Look, you guys would do a lot better if you’d quit whining about elections lost, Bush’s failings, etc., and start telling about any strong points that Kerry might have to offer. > > '00 is done. Get over it. So simply with the passage of 4 years’ time since the last election, it should no longer concern anyone whether or not vote-rigging took place in Florida. Like, who cares whether the elction was won legitimately or by cheating. Anything that happened 4 or more years ago doesn’t matter anymore. Another great comeback! ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/14 "2004-08-19T04:33:55Z")
> [@buns3000](#): > > Great comeback! Case dismissed. :rolleyes: [Let’s try a reputable source.](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/) Electoral votes: Bush: 271 Gore: 266 End of discussion. People can cite all of the ‘[Www.OMGBUSHISTEHSUX0R.ORG](http://Www.OMGBUSHISTEHSUX0R.ORG)’ that they want, but that doesn’t mean much. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/15 "2004-08-19T04:44:27Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > [Let’s try a reputable source.](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/) > > Electoral votes: > Bush: 271 > Gore: 266 > > End of discussion. People can cite all of the ‘[Www.OMGBUSHISTEHSUX0R.ORG](http://Www.OMGBUSHISTEHSUX0R.ORG)’ that they want, but that doesn’t mean much. Hmm, I think I see where you’re having trouble. Let me clear it up for you: it’s not the _electoral_ votes that were miscounted. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/16 "2004-08-19T04:56:43Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Hmm, I think I see where you’re having trouble. Let me clear it up for you: it’s not the _electoral_ votes that were miscounted. Yes yes yes. And when a reputable news source agrees with that assertion, I may pay attention. Until then, it’s just conspiracy babble. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/17 "2004-08-19T05:21:12Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > It’s been well documented that Gore got the most actual votes in Florida, and I’ve not seen anyone produce any evidence contrary to this. Add in the tens of thousands of disenfranchised voters from democratic demographics and the state would’ve been fairly solidly for Gore. ## Well, according to the [CNN Archive](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/results/index.president.html) there were 5,957,459 votes counted in Florida. We would have to add 140,000 to Gore’s total to give him half of the vote to Bush’s 48%. Had every vote been recorded as intended Gore undoubtably would have had a bunch more than Bush but I think it’s fair to say, as conservatives often do, the electorate was basically split down the middle. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/18 "2004-08-19T05:32:26Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Yes yes yes. And when a reputable news source agrees with that assertion, I may pay attention. Until then, it’s just conspiracy babble. See **BrainGlutton** ’s quote above: > [@](#): > > Under any standard that tabulated all disputed votes statewide, Mr. Gore erased Mr. Bush’s advantage and emerged with a tiny lead that ranged from 42 to 171 votes. Donald Lambro, “Recount Provides No Firm Answers,” Washington Times, November 12, 2001. The Washington Times may not be the most reputable paper, but it certainly isn’t a liberal rag, and NORC’s results aren’t exactly a secret anyway. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/19 "2004-08-19T05:45:29Z")
Forget “42 to 171 votes,” I’m more interested in > [@](#): > > - Two memory cards were uploaded from Volusia Couny’s precinct 216, the second one was loaded sometime close to 2am in the morning. It automatically replaced the first card’s results and reduced Gore’s total by 16,022 votes and added several thousand votes to Bush plus a variety of minor candidates; Gore not having 16,000+ votes mysteriously disappear into the ether would have avoided all the hair-splitting over butterfly ballots and hanging chads, _n’est pas?_ ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/20 "2004-08-19T10:50:19Z")
What is particularly interesting about this is that it was the Volusia County’s numbers that led Fox to be the first to call the race for Bush, _when the VNS never did_. The rest of the networks followed suit. [http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/17/vns.ap/](http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/17/vns.ap/) One thing is clear: the Republicans appeared to know far better than the Democrats that winning over the court of public opinion was going to be crucial. Whether they engineered the only call of the race to Bush prior to Katherine Harris’ or not, I don’t know. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366.md?page=2)