# Did Diebold throw Florida for Bush in 2000? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366 "2004-08-18T07:19:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/21 "2004-08-19T13:08:31Z")
Gore didn’t have one of his first cousins running election-night coverage for a major network, either, **Hentor**. John Ellis of Fox has made no secret of the fact that he, Cousin Dubya, and Cousin Jeb were in constant telephone contact all night. There aren’t many ways possible to connect those dots. > [@2sense](#): > > the electorate was basically split down the middle And yet, almost certainly, one candidate had more people voting for him than the other guy did. That’s how we decide elections. It is \*necessary \* to find that out - we can’t just call it a tie - what’s the tiebreaker, then, in your philosophy? Other states were very close, too, but had clear winners upon closer inspection. How close should a vote be before you think we should throw up our hands and call it a tie and then do, well, what? The argument that it’s all just statistical noise is _false_. If it were, the errors would be about evenly distributed either way. But they weren’t - the known “errors” virtually all went the same way, and therefore are extremely _im_probably random or innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/22 "2004-08-19T13:22:30Z")
Diebold acquired its election systems division in 2002. Therefore, Diebold played no part whatsoever in the 2000 election, unless you want to talk political contributions and employees voting. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/23 "2004-08-19T13:48:02Z")
Just a name change, Jonathan. The systems and the people running the show now are the same.[Who Owns Diebold?](http://www.votefraud.org/who_owns_diebold.htm) > [@](#): > > Bob Urosevich is the CEO of Diebold Election Systems. Urosevich created the original software architecture for Diebold Election Systems, and his original company, called I-Mark Systems, can be found in the source code signatures. > > Prior to programming for and taking over Diebold Election Systems, Urosevich programmed for and was CEO of Election Systems & Software (ES&S), which counts 56 percent of the votes in the United States. When Urosevich left ES&S, Chuck Hagel took his position. (Hagel then ran for the U.S. Senate, with ES&S machines counting his own votes, but failed to disclose that he had been both CEO and Chairman of ES&S on his disclosure documents). > > Bob Urosevich, together with his brother Todd, founded ES&S. Bob then went to run Diebold, while Todd still is a Vice President at ES&S. Diebold and ES&S, together, count about 80 percent of the votes in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/24 "2004-08-19T14:34:31Z")
I’m missing something here. I’ve read the article at the link, and AFAICT, the Diebold problem in Volusia County is said to have affected the vote totals _only long enough to affect the TV network calls_, and the briefly missing votes were ultimately restored. I don’t consider that to constitute ‘throwing the election,’ no matter what it did to the battle for public opinion. However, it reinforces my conviction that in states and counties using electronic voting, the precinct vote totals **must** be posted at the precincts before the memory cards are removed from the precincts, in order to assure no tampering with vote totals at County HQ. Independent observers can then record and total the posted precinct totals, matching them against the totals published in each county. It’s too late (politically, if not technically) to assure a paper trail for every vote this November, but it’s hardly too late for voters to insist on this simple fix. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/25 "2004-08-19T14:51:46Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’m missing something here. I’ve read the article at the link, and AFAICT, the Diebold problem in Volusia County is said to have affected the vote totals _only long enough to affect the TV network calls_, and the briefly missing votes were ultimately restored. Yeah, that is my reading of the article too. Do you agree, **rjung**? I.e., these 16,000 votes were ultimately restored to Gore’s total. By my reading, what the article is pointing out is: (1) What does it say that the Diebold system even allowed such a bizarre thing as a negative vote total to be added to Gore’s count? And, how did this happen anyway since it seems hard to have it happen erroneously…Was it an attempt to tamper with the results? (2) What does this say about what could have happened elsewhere with the Diebold system and not have been detected?..Or what could happen in the future? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/26 "2004-08-19T15:01:28Z")
Actually, I realized that what I said is a little simplistic in one respect: Even though this error was ultimately corrected, one could argue that it affected the outcome because it affected the whole psychological atmosphere in which the recount proceeded. I.e., without this error, it is likely that the networks would never have called the state for Bush but kept it as “too close to call” pending a recount. And, it is also likely that Gore would have never have made his initial concession that he then retracted. Whether all this would have caused the Florida debacle to play out differently is really in the realm of speculation. ---
**Author:** ![MaleBox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MaleBox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaleBox)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/27 "2004-08-19T15:07:13Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > ## Well, according to the [CNN Archive](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/results/index.president.html) there were 5,957,459 votes counted in Florida. We would have to add 140,000 to Gore’s total to give him half of the vote to Bush’s 48%. Had every vote been recorded as intended Gore undoubtably would have had a bunch more than Bush but I think it’s fair to say, as conservatives often do, the electorate was basically split down the middle. Huh? 140,000? Half the vote? A plurality wins a state. Each candidate got 49%. Your cite gives Bush the edge by 930 votes. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/28 "2004-08-19T15:23:22Z")
Most of the conspiracy theories about the Florida vote seem to require that a plan was in place prior to Election Day to give the state to Bush. But who knew ahead of time that the Florida electoral votes would be the deciding ones? In fact wouldn’t the Florida vote have been a non-issue if Al Gore had only managed to win his home state? ---
**Author:** ![braintree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/29 "2004-08-19T17:30:24Z")
> [@Dewey Finn](#): > > Most of the conspiracy theories about the Florida vote seem to require that a plan was in place prior to Election Day to give the state to Bush. But who knew ahead of time that the Florida electoral votes would be the deciding ones? In fact wouldn’t the Florida vote have been a non-issue if Al Gore had only managed to win his home state? “Conspiracy theories?” Um, Dewey, you’re not trying to discredit some well-documented abuses with a feat of nomeclature, are you? Are you aware that about 90,000 mostly Democratic voters were illegally disqualified from voting despite two court orders telling Katherine Harris and Jeb Bush to cease and desist? And, by the way, it really ought to be obvious to anyone that the very idea of using a voting system that doesn’t have some kind of verifiable paper trail is absolutely, irredeemably whack. I mean, it’s like having some B-girl wear nothing but stockings and garters and then having her bend over in front of a throng of recently released prisoners. The invitation and opportunity couldn’t possibly be more obvious nor the consequences any more predictable or ugly. The fact that this is actually being done (the former not, to my knowledge, the latter) shows that we truly are a nation of boneheads. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/30 "2004-08-19T17:34:25Z")
> [@Dewey Finn](#): > > But who knew ahead of time that the Florida electoral votes would be the deciding ones? Anyone who paid attention to the polls just might have suspected it could happen, ya know? Dubya only had one brother serving as a Governor to help him, anyway. > [@](#): > > In fact wouldn’t the Florida vote have been a non-issue if Al Gore had only managed to win his home state? Irrelevant. We’re discussing what \*did \* happen. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/31 "2004-08-19T18:55:40Z")
> [@Dewey Finn](#): > > Most of the conspiracy theories about the Florida vote seem to require that a plan was in place prior to Election Day to give the state to Bush. But who knew ahead of time that the Florida electoral votes would be the deciding ones? In fact wouldn’t the Florida vote have been a non-issue if Al Gore had only managed to win his home state? Your logic fails on a number of counts here: (1) In fact, Florida was one of a handful of states that was known to be likely to decide the election in the event that it was close, because of its combination of it being very tight race there and having a fairly large number of electoral votes. In fact, as [this](http://www.thegreenpapers.com/G04/ElectorAllocation.phtml?sort=Popu#Popu) chart shows, Florida was #4 in terms of electoral votes and I don’t believe any of the top 3 states (California, N.Y., and Texas) were in serious contention. Both candidates spent a lot of time in Florida. See [this](http://www.evote.com/index.asp?Page=/news_section/2000-10/10272000Bush.asp) article from a week before the election for a discussion of Florida (and of Tennessee). (2) You know the saying, “Think globally, Act Locally”. I am afraid that might apply to election shenanighans too. That the Florida fiasco received so close scrutiny is because it did make the difference in the election. It may very well be that irregularities occurred in other states but that they were not sufficient to affect the outcome of the election. (3) Whether or not Al Gore won his home state is irrelevant. Tennessee has become quite conservative and so it was known that Gore might not be able to hold it. (Currently, both Senators are Republicans, for example.) ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/32 "2004-08-19T19:44:22Z")
I see your point but it just seemed really pitiful that Gore couldn’t win Tennessee, and had he done so, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are today. ---
**Author:** ![MaleBox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MaleBox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaleBox)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/33 "2004-08-19T20:15:46Z")
Does that make Al Gore pitiful, or Tennessee? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/34 "2004-08-19T20:58:17Z")
> [@Dewey Finn](#): > > I see your point but it just seemed really pitiful that Gore couldn’t win Tennessee, and had he done so, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are today. What exactly is pitiful about it? Should the voters of Tennessee have voted for Gore, even though they disagreed with his politics? Or should Gore have run on a conservative platform, instead of going with the values he actually believes in, just to win a symbolic victory in his home state? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/35 "2004-08-19T21:05:42Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > What exactly is pitiful about it? Should the voters of Tennessee have voted for Gore, even though they disagreed with his politics? Or should Gore have run on a conservative platform, instead of going with the values he actually believes in, just to win a symbolic victory in his home state? Perhaps not a more conservative platform, but a more effective campaign. For example, he constantly got shit about supposedly saying that he invented the internet but never refuted it properly. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/36 "2004-08-19T22:03:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And yet, almost certainly, one candidate had more people voting for him than the other guy did. That’s how we decide elections. It is \*necessary \* to find that out - we can’t just call it a tie - what’s the tiebreaker, then, in your philosophy? Other states were very close, too, but had clear winners upon closer inspection. How close should a vote be before you think we should throw up our hands and call it a tie and then do, well, what? You seem to have missed the context of my post and perhaps some of the words in it as well. I was replying to **Avenger** ’s assertion that if we “Add in the tens of thousands of disenfranchised voters from democratic demographics and the state would’ve been fairly solidly for Gore.” I was showing that if we did as he suggested Florida would still have had a nearly balanced electorate. ( Hopefully this clears up **MaleBox** ’s confusion as well. ) Notice also my post states that one candidate, Gore, certainly had more people voting for him than the other. ## Nor do you, as a moderate Democrat, have any standing to question this radical Green’s commitment to majoritarianism. You support our undemocratic Constitution whereas I believe we should tear it up and start over with a system based on majority rule. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/37 "2004-08-20T07:30:10Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] Okay, this isn’t exactly a timely topic, but it’s one of those things that have been bugging me for a while; Not timely? What, you want to wait until Nov 3 to discuss? it’s way overdue. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/38 "2004-08-20T07:39:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It’s too late (politically, if not technically) to assure a paper trail for every vote this November, but it’s hardly too late for voters to insist on this simple fix. yes and no. absentee ballots ARE a paper trail, and they are hella easier to cast. Stay home November 2. Vote by mail on Nov. 1. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/39 "2004-08-20T13:28:05Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > You seem to have missed the context of my post and perhaps some of the words in it as well. …I was showing that if we did as he suggested Florida would still have had a nearly balanced electorate. …Notice also my post states that one candidate, Gore, certainly had more people voting for him than the other. Oh, so _that’s_ what “the electorate was basically split down the middle” means in your dialect. The “context” of your post was that we shouldn’t bother trying to figure out the winner if the count is close enough. > [@](#): > > You support our undemocratic Constitution whereas I believe we should tear it up and start over with a system based on majority rule. I actually agree we should go to a straight popular count. Are you surprised? I also actually think we should \*all \* follow the rules that are in place at the time of an election. I certainly do “have standing” as a citizen to oppose your suggestion that we should simply ignore rules we personally dislike rather than bother changing them. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366/40 "2004-08-20T13:31:06Z")
If Diebold WAS cheating on Bush’s behalf, they sure did a lousy job of it! Why did they have him win by only a few hundred votes, which could easily have been overcome in a recount? Why didn’t they give him a landslide? Or at least a COMFORTABLE lead? If there WAS a conspiracy (and frankly, this sounds like more of rjung’s usual tinfoil-hat stuff), I’d say G.W. Bush should call Diebold and demand a refund! Sigh… it’s so hard to hire good conspirators! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-diebold-throw-florida-for-bush-in-2000/260366.md?page=3)