# Did English-Speakers c. 1611 Really Say "Thee" and "Thou" and "Thine"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 13, 2021, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993 "2021-12-13T16:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/21 "2021-12-14T00:01:17Z")
Which languages, and which religions probably makes a difference? Just for instance, Catholicism has a bunch of prayers in Latin. But Latin has no T-V distinction, so what is a translator to do? Whether he or she goes for the intimate or the formal pronoun, either choice creates a shade of meaning that does not exist in the original. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/22 "2021-12-14T00:33:15Z")
True. I was speaking of English use of “Thou” primarily in Protestant services. I have heard that in the Aramaic version of the Lord’s Prayer, the word for “Father” (as in “Our Father”) was quite informal (“Daddy”) - but I don’t have a cite at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/23 "2021-12-14T01:25:33Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > assuming one would be polite to a deity who does, after all, turn people into pillars of salt and things, but the KJB opted for the informal use. It wasn’t only the informal use or the use to people considered one’s inferiors; it was also the intimate use. Going from you to thee with a person indicated close friendship or becoming lovers. Using the intimate for God implied closeness to God. Using ‘you’ for someone you should use ‘thou’ for would I think also have been rude; or, at least, would indicate that you wanted to be distanced from them. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/24 "2021-12-14T01:33:49Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Using ‘you’ for someone you should use ‘thou’ for would I think also have been rude; or, at least, would indicate that you wanted to be distanced from them. Yes. The equivalent today is use of first name and last names. Calling the head of your company “Hank” the moment you meet him would be dangerously unfriendly (until he tells you to) (equivalent of “Thou”-ing him) - and calling your girlfriend “Miss Anderson” would be rudely formal (equivalent to “You”-ing her)… ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/25 "2021-12-14T08:10:37Z")
Common practice in Christianity (and, to my knowledge, also in Judaism) is to use the informal form when praying in languages that have the T-V distinction. So God (and also other beings prayed to, such as Jesus or the Virgin Mary) is “du” in German, “tu” in French. Also vice versa, when God is taken to use the informal form when communicating with humans. This is referenced in a song by Gérard Lenorman: “Tu n’as pas de titre ni de grade, mais tu dis ‘tu’ quand tu parles à Dieu.” The Latin texts of the prayers don’t make a distinction, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/26 "2021-12-14T08:20:39Z")
Those words and variations of them are _still_ spoken in parts of the north-east. Certainly my older rural relatives used them. Anyone familiar with the James Herriott books will get a feeling for how that dialect worked and was spoken. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/27 "2021-12-14T08:32:13Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Those words and variations of them are _still_ spoken in parts of the north-east. My ex’s parents (now in their 80s) would drop in the odd ‘tha’ knows’ where I might say ‘you know’. They are in Blackburn, Lancashire, and still very much alive. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/28 "2021-12-14T08:46:45Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > Common practice in Christianity (and, to my knowledge, also in Judaism) is to use the informal form when praying in languages that have the T-V distinction. That’s not the case in Dutch and Afrikaans. The formal form is used when praying to God. **Dutch** _u_ or _uw_ (formal) and _jij_ (informal) > Onze Vader die in de hemelen zijt, > uw naam worde geheiligd; > uw koninkrijk kome; > uw wil geschiede, > gelijk in de hemel alzo ook op de aarde. **Afrikaans** _u_ (formal) and _jy_ (informal) > Onse Vader wat in die hemel is, > laat u Naam geheilig word. > Laat u koninkryk kom. > Laat u wil geskied, > soos in die hemel net so ook op die aarde. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/29 "2021-12-14T11:46:08Z")
Interesting, I didn’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/30 "2021-12-14T12:23:46Z")
The “Hail Mary”, or “Ave Maria” in French uses the word “vous”. " Je vous salue Marie, pleine de grâce. Le Seigneur est avec vous. Vous êtes bénie entre toutes les femmes, et Jésus le fruit de vos entrailles est béni…" But the "Lord’s Prayer: uses “tu”. “Notre Père qui es aux cieux, que ton nom soit sanctifié, que ton règne vienne, que ta volonté soit faite…” ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/31 "2021-12-14T12:32:29Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > And I assume that Quakers still use thee for both subject and object form. At least they did when I was growing up. There’s an old joke about a Quaker girl who was completely exasperated with her sister and exclaimed: “Thee…thee…thee…little YOU, thee.” ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/32 "2021-12-14T13:02:19Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > And I assume that Quakers still use thee for both subject and object form. At least they did when I was growing up. And when Philip Barry was writing _The Philadelphia Story_ in the late 1930s. The character played by Jimmy Stewart in the 1940 film visits a library in suburban Philadelphia staffed by Quaker librarians: > Librarian: What does thee wish? > > Mike: I’m looking for some local books… [visibly taken aback] What’d you say? > > Librarian: What does thee wish? > > Mike: Local biography or history. > > Librarian: If thee will consult with my colleague in there. [points] > > Mike: Dost thou have a washroom? [Librarian points.] Thank thee. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/33 "2021-12-14T13:14:47Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Thee and thou is/was a familiar form of address intended for a child, a lover, or a close family member in informal circumstances. To use it to a stranger would be considered rude; addressed to your social superiors, it’s a downright insult which risks a punch on the nose or worse. There is a tale of a senior member of a Yorkshire cricket club saying (within living memory) to a young whippersnapper who’d used the familiar form “Tha tha’s them as tha’s thee - and not afore”. In the early 1970s I worked in Stoke on Trent, and I certainly heard teenagers on occasion using a formulation like “Hast 'a?”, which is exactly the verb and pronoun for the local form of “thou”. [Maybe that’s died out now](https://bloodandtreasure.typepad.com/blood_treasure/2005/08/dunner_blart.html). ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/34 "2021-12-14T14:28:02Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > To use it to a stranger would be considered rude; addressed to your social superiors, it’s a downright insult which risks a punch on the nose or worse. Especially those teen-agers. They are always going about saying things like, “Come and get one in the yarbles, if yarbles thou have, thou eunuch jelly, thou,” and “Have at thee, coward!” ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2021, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/35 "2021-12-16T01:53:06Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Using ‘you’ for someone you should use ‘thou’ for would I think also have been rude; or, at least, would indicate that you wanted to be distanced from them. Look at _Hamlet_ 3.1 Hamlet keeps going back and forth from the familiar to the formal with Ophelia. Perhaps the usage was fluid in Shakespeare’s time, or maybe he’s messing with her, or maybe his mind is disordered. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2021, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/36 "2021-12-16T02:56:15Z")
My step-siblings from Sheffield still say thee and thou. Th’art (as in “th’art an absolute mithering twat - th’art = thou art” isn’t rare in that area, more common than not. A friend’s teenage sons in Leeds say thee and thou, without any affectation. It hasn’t died out. They don’t say it on formal occasions, which is pretty much how it was always it’s always been intended, and don’t usually write it, so it might mean that if you meet them through a work event you won’t be aware of it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2021, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/37 "2021-12-16T03:47:26Z")
I recently read a Facebook post that claimed that ‘thee’ and ‘though’ defend the usage of ‘they’ and ‘their’ as singulars. I didn’t care enough to ask for a citation. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2021, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/38 "2021-12-16T04:14:15Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I recently read a Facebook post that claimed that ‘thee’ and ‘though’ defend the usage of ‘they’ and ‘their’ as singulars. Modern English replaced its distinct second-person singular pronouns (thou/thee/thy) with its second-person plural pronouns. It could also replace its distinct third-person singular pronouns (he/she/it) with its third-person plural pronouns. If we can handle singular “you” we can handle singular “they”. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2021, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/39 "2021-12-16T22:20:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > > > I recently read a Facebook post that claimed that ‘thee’ and ‘though’ defend the usage of ‘they’ and ‘their’ as singulars. > > Modern English replaced its distinct second-person singular pronouns (thou/thee/thy) with its second-person plural pronouns. It could also replace its distinct third-person singular pronouns (he/she/it) with its third-person plural pronouns. If we can handle singular “you” we can handle singular “they” On the other hand, the widespread use of informal second-person plural pronouns like _y’all_ and _you guys_ suggests that English-speakers do perceive and are attempting to fill a gap in the language. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993/40 "2021-12-17T01:22:34Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > calling your girlfriend “Miss Anderson” would be rudely formal (equivalent to “You”-ing her)… Unless it was a teasing, titillating thing. I wonder if that happened in olden times, where a man would give his lady a look and say something a little salty like “And how are you today, madam?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-english-speakers-c-1611-really-say-thee-and-thou-and-thine/955993.md?page=3)