# Did George Bush actually perform diplomacy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159 "2007-06-07T18:28:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rooh\_Afza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/74df32/32.png) [@Rooh\_Afza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rooh_Afza)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/21 "2007-06-08T03:54:05Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Oh no. Please explain quite a lot, in detail. Examples would be nice. [/QUOTE] Reaganonics. Evil Empire. “We have bombed the Kremlin”. Oh, hey! Over there! A lookinglass! ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/22 "2007-06-08T07:27:43Z")
[QUOTE=Rooh Afza] Reaganonics. Evil Empire. “We have bombed the Kremlin”. Oh, hey! Over there! A lookinglass! [/QUOTE] “Mr. Gorbacgev, tear down this wall!” As if that wall would ever come down… Also, the quote was more like “We have outlawed Russia. Bombing begins in five minutes.” ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/23 "2007-06-08T12:54:00Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Churchill was loved so much they voted him out of office. Lincoln was loved so much he was shot. [/QUOTE] I think we can all agree that the reason nobody has shot GWB is that security measures are much better nowadays, and especially in his case, as people feel so strongly about him. I remember a fuss about a virtual shut-down of all of London so that he could visit there. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/24 "2007-06-08T13:24:30Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Oh no. Please explain quite a lot, in detail. Examples would be nice. And when you explain, I’d like you to keep in mind that not all diplomatic failures should be blamed on only one side in the negotiations. The people we deal with have agendas as well, some of which we simply must oppose. I think there are three kinds of people in the world, basically. If there is a headline that says “U.S., Benin Talks Break Down,” one group will instantly blame the U.S. in their head, another will curse at Benin, and the third will read the article to see what on earth the argument was about. What group are you in, praytell? [/QUOTE] As I said, me and you will never see eye to eye on this. If I need to find examples of Bush’s horrible international diplomacy and general communication skills, then you and I see things differently. And any example I gave you, you would simply argue around it, so no point. As for what “group” I am in, I’m in the group that likes their political leaders to be well spoken, diplomatic, and able to answer question from the press without fumbling around like two teenagers in the back of daddy’s car. I will leave you with the simple image of GW at last years summit trying to massage the shoulders of the German chancellor (dang if I can remember her name). How can you watch that, then not be suprised when he does something worthwhile? ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/25 "2007-06-08T13:51:29Z")
Although there’s not much a debate right now, I do see a spark of one. So, I’m moving this to GD. The mods there can close it if the thread fizzles. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/26 "2007-06-08T14:09:04Z")
[QUOTE=Dob] As for what “group” I am in, I’m in the group that likes their political leaders to be well spoken, diplomatic, and able to answer question from the press without fumbling around like two teenagers in the back of daddy’s car. [/QUOTE] That is the preference of all of us, I’d bet. But to me, the real test comes when policy comes into play. Keep in mind, please, that presidents typically show up to sign the treaties in ceremonies, and the hard work of negotiating them is done by staffers and diplomats. So to measure presidents by their diplomatic accomplishments, maybe we ought to look at what they were able to achieve, and concentrate a bit less on whether they accidentally used their dessert fork in the salad. When I asked you for examples, this is the sort of thing I was after. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/27 "2007-06-08T14:23:43Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] So to measure presidents by their diplomatic accomplishments, maybe we ought to look at what they were able to achieve… [/QUOTE] North Korea’s got the bomb. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/28 "2007-06-08T14:35:15Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] North Korea’s got the bomb. [/QUOTE] Yes - let’s list Bush’s other diplomatic triumphs. Seven years of inaction on global warming. Setting fire to the Middle East. Still no world trade deal. Failed coup attempt in Venezuela and the continued rise of people friendly but US unfriendly Latin American govts. Pissing away the post 9/11 world good will. Sending Bolton to the UN. The man is clearly a diplomatic giant. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/29 "2007-06-08T14:37:10Z")
Its simple, really. Once again, Bush looked into Putin’s eyes, saw his soul, and knew they could be friends. Friendship prevailed and now they play nicely together. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/30 "2007-06-08T14:57:24Z")
I don’t expect much from this guy so when I heard he had an upset stomach but hadn’t puked on any world leaders (one point where he’s better than his father) I thought that was his diplomacy at its zenith. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/31 "2007-06-08T14:59:56Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Failed coup attempt in Venezuela and the continued rise of people friendly but US unfriendly Latin American govts. [/QUOTE] No way. Is that really true? . . . I am no George Bush fan by any means, but I am very pleased with Mr. Bush’s recent promises to address Global Warming and the genocide in Sudan. Bush has an opportunity to do some _real_ good before he leaves office. I hope it continues. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/32 "2007-06-08T15:00:48Z")
I haven’t done any real research yet, but I don’t recall a lot of leader-to-leader diplomacy that Bush has been involved in. His foreign policy has gotten a lot of people unnecessarily killed, but that’s not really summit-type diplomacy. I think maybe \*\*Dob \*\* was lumping Bush’s foreign policy disasters with his one-on-one diplomacy. A lot of people have wrongly portrayed his “massage” of Angela Merkel’s shoulders as being some kind of sexual come-on, remembering Boris Yeltsin’s bra-snapping episode. I think it was more good-ol’-boy playfulness that he would also have visited on a male counterpart, and he was telling Merkel, “Relax, Angie, you’re among friends here.” It may have been a social faux pas, but it wasn’t a diplomatic disaster. It’s not unusual for heads of state to posture and fulminate before a summit, and then seem to come to terms at the summit, making the summit appear more successful than it actually was. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/33 "2007-06-08T15:01:13Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] I don’t expect much from this guy so when I heard he had an upset stomach but hadn’t puked on any world leaders (one point where he’s better than his father) I thought that was his diplomacy at its zenith. [/QUOTE] You are absolutely right. And he refrained from copping another feel from Angela Merkel, didn’t refer to anyone as ‘Evil Doer’ directly to their face and managed to keep the ‘me velly solly’ impressions of the Chinese delegation to the barest minimum. We just don’t give him enough credit. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/34 "2007-06-08T15:09:08Z")
[QUOTE=Honesty] No way. Is that really true? . . . I am no George Bush fan by any means, but I am very pleased with Mr. Bush’s recent promises to address Global Warming and the genocide in Sudan. Bush has an opportunity to do some _real_ good before he leaves office. I hope it continues. - Honesty [/QUOTE] [Coup linked to Bush](http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html) > [@](#): > > The failed coup in Venezuela was closely tied to senior officials in the US government, The Observer has established. They have long histories in the ‘dirty wars’ of the 1980s, and links to death squads working in Central America at that time. > > Washington’s involvement in the turbulent events that briefly removed left-wing leader Hugo Chavez from power last weekend resurrects fears about US ambitions in the hemisphere. > > One of them, Elliot Abrams, who gave a nod to the attempted Venezuelan coup, has a conviction for misleading Congress over the infamous Iran-Contra affair. > > The Bush administration has tried to distance itself from the coup. It immediately endorsed the new government under businessman Pedro Carmona. But the coup was sent dramatically into reverse after 48 hours. > > Now officials at the Organisation of American States and other diplomatic sources, talking to The Observer, assert that the US administration was not only aware the coup was about to take place, but had sanctioned it, presuming it to be destined for success. > > The visits by Venezuelans plotting a coup, including Carmona himself, began, say sources, ‘several months ago’, and continued until weeks before the putsch last weekend. The visitors were received at the White House by the man President George Bush tasked to be his key policy-maker for Latin America, Otto Reich. [American Navy help](http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,706802,00.html) > [@](#): > > The United States had been considering a coup to overthrow the elected Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez, since last June, a former US intelligence officer claimed yesterday. > > It is also alleged that the US navy aided the abortive coup which took place in Venezuela on April 11 with intelligence from its vessels in the Caribbean. Evidence is also emerging of US financial backing for key participants in the coup. > > Wayne Madsen, a former intelligence officer with the US navy, told the Guardian yesterday that American military attaches had been in touch with members of the Venezuelan military to examine the possibility of a coup. > > “I first heard of Lieutenant Colonel James Rogers [the assistant military attache now based at the US embassy in Caracas] going down there last June to set the ground,” Mr Madsen, an intelligence analyst, said yesterday. “Some of our counter-narcotics agents were also involved.” > > He said that the navy was in the area for operations unconnected to the coup, but that he understood they had assisted with signals intelligence as the coup was played out. > > Mr Madsen also said that the navy helped with communications jamming support to the Venezuelan military, focusing on communications to and from the diplomatic missions in Caracas belonging to Cuba, Libya, Iran and Iraq - the four countries which had expressed support for Mr Chavez. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2007, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/35 "2007-06-18T00:30:58Z")
But for the entire Iraq fiasco, I think people would still be willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt. He burned hiw goodwill with us and our goodwill with the world. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159/36 "2007-06-19T17:55:50Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] In Russia, missiles point at EU! [/QUOTE] Mr. **Ludovic** , your agonizer, please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-george-bush-actually-perform-diplomacy/407159.md?page=1)