Did George Washington have a southern accent?

[Spoke]

Just an update to this thread.

I was gratified to note that the History Channel’s series on the founding fathers (aired during the past week) featured Southern accents galore. The words of Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry were read with very distinct Southern accents (and I think rightly so), while the words of George Washington were read with a still-distinct, but milder version of the accent.

Finally, the the thought occurs to producers of a documentary: “Hey, what do you know? There were some Southerners around during the Revolution.”

Now if only they had read Adams’ words with a New England accent…

[Johanna]

in the dozens of portrayals of these gentlemen on television and in film, I have never once seen them portrayed as having a southern accent.

There was the film Jefferson in Paris, where Nick Nolte as Jefferson affected a definite Southern accent. “Oh, if onlih ya cu’d taste mah sweet puhtatas!”

There have been recent discussions on the sci.lang newsgroup speculating what Jefferson’s accent would really have sounded like. Apparently the Virginia accent back then was different from both England and the Southern accent of today. They used pronunciations that are now obsolete.

[Spoke]

Ursa Major wrote (oh so long ago):

Only the West was more isolated, and you can clearly see dialect reflected in their writings; (“Yep, I reckon them thar injuns are a might riled.”) The Southern writers we are familiar with from the 18th century were all educated aristocrats who would never let their dialect be reflected in their writing.

This reminds me: Didn’t Daniel Boone (a contemporary of the founding fathers) once carve “Dan’l Boone kilt a bar on this tree” (i.e., “Daniel Boone killed a bear on this tree”), or is that story apocryphal?

If true, that carving seems like a pretty good indication that the southern accent was fully developed very early in our nation’s history.

ishmintingas, do you have a link to the discussions to which you refer? I’m curious as to how the folks involved in those discussions arrived at their conclusions.

[Spoke]

Here’s that carving. The photo’s not too clear, but according to this site, the carving reads “D. Boon cilled a Bar on tree in the year 1760,” which is still indicative of a backwoods southern accent.

[stuyguy]

Regarding this quote:

in the dozens of portrayals of these gentlemen on television and in film, I have never once seen them portrayed as having a southern accent.

Say what you will about how goofy Broadway musicals can be, but you must commend the creators of the original production of 1776, (much of the casting of which carried over to the movie version).

Sure they got some of the historical details wrong; but John Cullum (known to most TV viewers as the bar owner in Northern Exposure) used his rich southern accent to great effect as Edward Rutledge, and William Daniels portrayed John Adams with a robust New England twang.

[Sir_Rhosis]

FWIW, Sam Neill (Australian, I believe) used a (fairly broad, un-nuanced) Southern accent for his portrayal of Jeffereson in “Sally Hemmings: An American Scandal,” the mini-series which aired earlier this year.

Sir

[plnnr]

Let me jump in here, being a native born Virginian and all, and being from the same part of the world as George.

As was pointed out, George Washington is from the part of hte state known as the Northern Neck. It is a long peninsula stretching southeast from Fredericksburg/King George area to Lancaster County. The area was primarily settled by the English and Welsh, and there is, to this day, a very distinct sound to the language spoken there. “Hoos”=“house”, “moos”=“mouse”, etc. You can nearly always tell when someone is from the Neck. The sound is even more unadulterated on Tangier Island. You practically need an interpreter. The nearest I’ve heard it described is by someone from Cornwall, England who said that “they speak just like we do.”

Washington was born at Pope’s Creek in Westmoreland, but spent much of his formative years in Fredericksburg and with his brother in Northern Virginia. Being more cosmopolitan than the Neck, he probably got the rough edges of his voice rubbed away and I doubt that he had an extreme accent by the time of his adulthood. You should also remember that Washington was always very, very particular about appearances and proper manners. I’m sure that he would have taken great pains to “fit in” with the landed gentry that he managed to marry into (his family wasn’t particularly wealthy, but Martha Custis was the richest woman in the Commonwealth when they married).

Thomas Jefferson was from the Piedmont region and, from all accounts, had a high, thin voice that was hard to hear. As for his accent, I imagine that he had even less of a distinct accent than did Washington. Surprisingly, Jefferson may have had more outside influences on his speech than did Washington. In the Neck at the time most everybody was of English descent. In the Valley there were great numbers of Scots, Irish, and Germans (they migrated down the Valley from Philadelphia headed West). Jefferson, who was better educated than Washington, also had the rough edges of his speech worn away.

Robert E. Lee is from Westmorland County as well. If you ever get to the Neck you can see Pope’s Creek (not much left there now) and Stratford Hall (Lee’s ancestral home) very easily. Stratford is just beautiful and worth the trip. Interestingly enough, Lee and Washington were related. Lee probably had the same accent given his place of birth and upbringing.

This now concludes your Eastern Virginia History lesson for today. Next week, we’ll talk about the Battle of Fredericksburg and why Robert E. Lee, after watching his men kill Union soilders by the carload, said “It is good that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it.”

[Johanna]

spoke, here is the URL to that thread on sci.lang – but the link may or may not work –
http://x58.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/viewthread.xp?AN=552209095&search=thread&svcclass=dnyr&ST=PS&CONTEXT=976028795.1544552449&HIT_CONTEXT=976028795.1544552449&HIT_NUM=1&recnum=<19991123154234.10947.00001165@ng-bj1.aol.com>%231/1&group=sci.lang&frpage=viewthread.xp&back=clarinet

so you can find it at Deja power search

http://www.deja.com/home_ps.shtml

search for the subject “Thomas Jefferson’s accent” and you’ll find it. It dates from 11/23/1999.

Here are some remarks posted in that thread…

The “Virginian” (actually tidewater) accent is based on southwestern English regional dialects, and is
of 17th century origin. (See Fischer, “Albion’s Seed”).

Several distinct dialects would have coexisted in Jefferson’s neighborhood; the Tidewater speech of
the gentry (Jefferson studied at William and Mary), Scots-Irish and German, etc.

> Just saw a TV show in which the actor playing Jefferson
> used a sort of hybrid “Southern” accent, with some weirdnesses, like
> “hewse” for “house”
>
> In Colonial times, was there a “Southern” accent as we
> understand it today […]
>
> Wouldn’t Jefferson have spoken more like the people in
> the part of England where his father, Peter Jefferson, came from
>…

If he said “hewse” for “house,” the accent may have been researched. I recall that areas of the
Smokey Mountains, New
England, and Canada (places with a common linguistic heritage, and places rather insulated from the
outside world) share this
pronunciation of the “ow” sound, a speech characteristic that dates back to colonial times.

I’ve been told that “Canadian raising” of /aU/ (the diphthong in “house” and “about”) before unvoiced
consonants is a characteristic feature of the speech of southeastern Virginia (the Tidewater region)
and central South Carolina (Columbia and environs).

I’ve heard this pronunciation, for example, used by South Carolina Senator Fritz Hollings.

Jefferson’s father was from Snowdonia, Wales - not England

[Spoke]

Thanks, ishmintingas.

I’m not sure I can agree with some of the statements being made in that discussion.

The “Virginian” (actually tidewater) accent is based on southwestern English regional dialects, and is of 17th century origin. (See Fischer, “Albion’s Seed”).

Several distinct dialects would have coexisted in Jefferson’s neighborhood; the Tidewater speech of the gentry (Jefferson studied at William and Mary), Scots-Irish and German, etc.

True enough, I suppose, but the writter is omitting the major linguistic influence of the African slaves who had been in Virginia for well over 100 years.

Wouldn’t Jefferson have spoken more like the people in the part of England [actually Wales] where his father, Peter Jefferson, came from

Well, no. Children tend to take on the accents and dialect of their peers and playmates, rather than the accents of their parents. I see this phenomenon all the time, as folks from Northern states move into rural areas of Georgia. The parents might have a New England twang, or a nasal Midwestern accent, but their children born in Georgia wind up with the Southern accents they hear at school.

I can imagine young Tom, as well as hundreds or thousands of young Southerners before him, counting the children of slaves among his playmates. That would be especially so on isolated plantations. (Haven’t I read about Jefferson as an adult having to travel for miles to a tavern to find conversation?) Interaction with slave children at an early age would have had a profound effect on speech patterns.

plnnr wrote:

Thomas Jefferson was from the Piedmont region and, from all accounts, had a high, thin voice that was hard to hear. As for his accent, I imagine that he had even less of a distinct accent than did Washington. Surprisingly, Jefferson may have had more outside influences on his speech than did Washington. In the Neck at the time most everybody was of English descent. In the Valley there were great numbers of Scots, Irish, and Germans (they migrated down the Valley from Philadelphia headed West). Jefferson, who was better educated than Washington, also had the rough edges of his speech worn away.

I can’t agree with your conclusions. Daniel Boone would have lived among the same Scottish, Irish and German immigrants, and yet he apparently pronounced “bear” as “bar”. Furthermore, the fact that these immigrants were in the same territory doesn’t necessarily imply daily interaction with them. I also think you are omitting the influence of slave dialect. In fact, owing to the geographic isolation of the large plantations, I’ll wager Jefferson had more (and more constant) exposure to slave dialects than to Scottish burr. After all, despite the large influx of Scottish settlers into the South, does the Southern accent today sound even remotely like a Scottish accent?

I still think slave dialects were the single most important factor in the development of the Southern accent, and I’m still inclined to believe that Jefferson’s accent, at least, would have been clearly recognizable to a modern listener as a Southern accent.

I think that Washington’s isolation was less profound and that his accent might therefore have been milder, but I would imagine that even he had sufficient exposure to slave dialects (and slave playmates, I’ll wager) that his accent would have been recognizably Southern as well.

[plnnr]

Interesting topic and discussion. I just finished reading Gore Vidal’s “Lincoln” and there is a passage that talks about Lincoln’s voice and speaking style (based upon a description made by Lincoln’s former law partner). From the discussion he (like Jefferson) is described as being what Seinfeld called a "low talker) unit he got warmed up to his subject, then he spoke loud enough for you to hear him.

I recently heard a recording of Teddy Roosevelt and his speech was in total contrast to his physical appearance.

Did Washington, et al have a Southern accent? Sure, as compared to John Adams and the other Northerns/New Englanders. Was it the stereotypical Southern accent associated with NASCAR drivers and Miss America winners (more of whom have come from Ole’Miss than any other school)? Probably not.

[dtilque]

The Southern writers we are familiar with from the 18th century were all educated aristocrats who would never let their dialect be reflected in their writing. Not until the Civil War, in the letters written home by less formally educated Southerners, do you see the dialect in writing. Lee and other Aristocrats still kept it out of their writing.

The journals of the Lewis and Clark expedition have a lot of “spelling the way it sounds”. Lewis was a Virginia plantation owner and was better educated than Clark, so his spelling is more standardized than Clark’s but is less than that of Jefferson. William Clark’s journal is noted as much for the imaginative spelling as anything else.

[Gyrate]

Another point to remember is that English accents themselves have migrated quite a lot in the last 200 years. According to Bill Bryson (who, apart from his travel writings, has written extensively on the English language), what we now consider a “backwoods” accent is probably the least adulterated version of the accents of the original settlers.

To take one example, “bear” probably was pronounced “bar” – it was a common enough pronunciation at the time, and lives on in a few odd words like “heart” and in the British place names “Derby” (“darby”), Berkshire (“barkshur”) and Hertford (“hartford”).

jr8

“The quality of our thoughts is bordered on all sides by our facility with language.”
– J. Michael Straczynski

[Spoke]

A PBS documentary on Washington aired in Atlanta last night, which brought this thread to mind. I was pleased to note that at least one of the actors portraying Washington spoke with a soft southern accent.

The documentary also reminded me of a couple of points which argue in favor of a Southern accent.

Washington had no formal schooling past age 16. At 16 he went to work as a surveyor, a job which would have taken him among the backwoodsmen of the Southern frontier. So a good number of his formative years were spent among backwoods southerners.

Also, I came acros an article on ginseng in the latest issue of Smithsonian. Now, in the rural South, “ginseng” is often pronounced “ginsang”. (In the same way that the verb “sing” is often pronounced in the backwoods as “sang.”)

So it was interesting to me to find (in the Smithsonian article) this excerpt from Washinton’s diary:

In passing over the Mountains, I met a number of Persons & Pack horses going in with Ginsang; & for salt & other articles at the Market below…

–Diary of George Washington, September 12, 1784.

(my emphasis)

(You can also find the excerpt here.

Note the phonetic spelling of the Southern pronunciation of ginseng.

So does this mean Washington not only had a Southern accent, but a flat-out cracker accent?

Any thoughts (or evidence) from newbies on this topic?

Also, is anyone aware of a good collection of Washington’s correspondence. (For further research.) I’ve looked at Amazon but can’t find one.

Lastly, I want to amend my earlier post to add Native Americans in general, and the Cherokee in particular, to the list of influences on the Southern accent. Indians remained in day-to-day contact with colonists on the Southern frontier long after they had been pushed out of the northeast, which makes me think that their pronunciations may have contributed to the unique accent of the South.

[Milton_De_La_Warre]

Oh my, my. The Northern Neck doesn’t have too many native speakers left, so far as I know, but if you go across to the other side of the river in Southern MD and find some long-time residents, you might still hear the way the language has been spoken for a long time. Cobb Island natives are a little less heavily accented than Tangerines. (I have heard it said that Tangerines speak “Shakespeare’s” English, where “regular” tidewater English is that of the 18th Century.) Southern Charles, St. Mary’s, and Calvert counties preserve the tidewater (or southern English, as Albion’s Seed has it) speech manner well.

Suburbanization, longer commutes, cable TV, tourism, and changing demographics are making this speech a very endangered thing.

FWIW, my Oklahoman/Southern Californian ex wife took directions to Hallowing Point (in Calvert County) to mean “Halloween Pint”.

[Spoke]

Seems odd to me that George Washington and Robert E. Lee were born within five miles of one another, yet Lee is presumed to have had a Southern accent while Washington (frequently) isn’t.

[Acsenray]

I don’t know whether G.W. was educated in England. Even if he were, though, I can’t buy the premise that he must therefore have had a British accent.

A key component of English education was to inculcate the proper accent. Any member of the proper classes educated in the heyday of English education would have acquired the proper accent at a public school like Eton or Marlborough regardless of where they came from. There would have been heavy pressure from schoolmates to conform.

This happens to some extent today even. Pierce Brosnan got rid of his Irish accent when his family moved to England. John Mahoney and Ted Koppel got rid of their English accents when they came to America.

[Spoke]

Moot point. Washington wasn’t educated in England, and wasn’t educated at all after age 16.

[plnnr]

The contradiction between people’s thoughts on Washington and Lee may have something to do with their general perceptions of the men in general. Washington is regarded as the father of “our” country so people have sort of a proprietary interest in him - he was certainly a Southerner and probably had a recognizaable accent when compared to Adams, Hancock, and the other Northern founding fathers. Lee, on the other hand, is recoginized primarily as a Southerner (even though he was educated at West Point and travelled extensively while on station). Lee is expected to have had an accent because of his association with the South. Washington isn’t because he his primarily associated with the nation as a whole. Maybe.

[OGRastamon]

@Spoke

the colonists had been in residence in America for nearly 200 years at the time of the Revolution.

You’re correct that the accent most likely evolved over the span of almost two centuries but make an incorrect assumption that it departed from the evolution of the British accent. You may have forgotten that Washington was born a British subject. If there was any development of the Southern accent at the time I find it likely that it started with far more common folk than cultured land-owners.

[Derleth]

@OGRastamon

You’re correct that the accent most likely evolved over the span of almost two centuries but make an incorrect assumption that it departed from the evolution of the British accent.

Given how far the American Colonies were from the British Isles, how could it not have diverged?