# Did Germany ask for their gold back that's stored in the USA? Did the US refuse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 11, 2019, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-germany-ask-for-their-gold-back-thats-stored-in-the-usa-did-the-us-refuse/836885 "2019-07-11T03:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-germany-ask-for-their-gold-back-thats-stored-in-the-usa-did-the-us-refuse/836885/24 "2019-07-15T00:26:35Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > To carry the analogy one step further, let’s say you gave the bank a bunch of currency and bullion to store in a safety deposit box > > The bank does not allow you to see the items in the box. > The box does not allow you to see the audit they do to insure your items are in the box. > You ask for you items and they say it will take a years as you will only get a few items per month due to nebulous “logistics”. > > Wouldn’t you get suspicious that your items were no longer in the box? If you knew of the situation happening to someone else and had items at the bank would YOU get suspicious that your items were no longer in the box? But gold stored like that is not in a safe deposit box. It’s there for the nation to draw or borrow on, not to mention make payments. They will move gold bars from one nations cache to another to pay debts, etc. Thats why they are stored there. It isnt a safety deposit box at all. ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-germany-ask-for-their-gold-back-thats-stored-in-the-usa-did-the-us-refuse/836885/25 "2019-07-15T00:42:14Z")
> [@pmwgreen](#): > > Judging by the Wikipedia article, the gold had never left the USA since it was bought in the 50’s and 60’s. How would Germany know if it was the “same gold”? From the New York Fed’s website: “All bars brought into the vault for deposit are carefully weighed, and the refiner and fineness (purity) markings on the bars are inspected to ensure they agree with the depositor instructions and recorded in the New York Fed’s records. This step is vital because the New York Fed returns the exact bars deposited by the account holder upon withdrawal—gold deposits are not considered fungible.” I think careful records are kept and a depositor informed of exact markings of their gold. ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-germany-ask-for-their-gold-back-thats-stored-in-the-usa-did-the-us-refuse/836885/26 "2019-07-15T01:12:10Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > A couple of posts here have suggested that the Germans were prevented from seeing or inspecting the German gold being stored at the New York Fed. Frankly, that sounds like bullshit. I assume that any of the governments or other groups that have gold stored there are allowed to inspect or inventory it as necessary. (Heck, upthread **Ann Hedonia** says she saw it and she’s nobody.) > > And the Financial Times article I linked to addresses this issue. “The Bundesbank denies that Mr Boehringer’s campaign spurred its decision to bring the gold home. It also denies accusations by gold bugs (those bullish on gold as a commodity) that the German gold has disappeared from the New York Fed’s vaults. Mr [Carl-Ludwig] Thiele [member of the Executive Board of the Bundesbank] says he has seen it twice, in 2012 and 2014. ‘It is there. And it was never a problem to see it or have it transported to Germany.’” Well, that’s true. Anyone CAN visit the vault and have a looksee: “Every year tens of thousands of visitors from around the world visit the gold vault as part of a free, public tour of the New York Fed. This tour is designed to educate visitors about the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and Federal Reserve System. You can register for a tour here.” BTW, every country or depositor has its individual numbered compartment in the Fed’s vault. Historically, the Bundesbank has always relied on written confirmation of its gold holdings in foreign countries’ vaults. The audits on paper have always served as proof. In 2015, the Bundesbank released a 2,300/2400-page list of all its gold bars stored everywhere. The list contained the bar numbers, melt or inventory numbers, the gross and fine weight as well as the fineness of the gold. The FT is the only source for Mr Thiele’s comment, with no more details. I wish they had gone more in depth about his visit to audit the German gold holdings at the Fed ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-germany-ask-for-their-gold-back-thats-stored-in-the-usa-did-the-us-refuse/836885/27 "2019-07-15T01:23:06Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > A couple of posts here have suggested that the Germans were prevented from seeing or inspecting the German gold being stored at the New York Fed. Frankly, that sounds like bullshit. I assume that any of the governments or other groups that have gold stored there are allowed to inspect or inventory it as necessary. (Heck, upthread **Ann Hedonia** says she saw it and she’s nobody.) And you would be wrong. Ann may have seen a display of the American reserve but countries [are not allowed to show up and see THEIR gold](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-02-05/germany-s-gold-repatriation-activist-peter-boehringer-gets-results) leading to the question of if the gold deposits are really sequestered like they should or even if it still exists. > [@](#): > > But the Bundesbank said the physical inventory requested by the audit court didn’t conform to common practice among central banks—that is, one does not just show up at the New York Fed and start counting gold bars. > > The Bundesbank told the German parliament it was in talks to gain access and that the New York Fed was receptive, as long as its own security and logistical constraints were taken into account. Bundesbank executive board member Carl-Ludwig Thiele, who testified to the parliament’s budget committee, added, “We’re in negotiations with our partner central banks to develop auditing rights.” > > For Boehringer, the disclosure that it would take negotiations to access the gold felt like proof he was on the right track. The limited transparency he’d won had made plain that Germany didn’t necessarily have the right to thoroughly examine the single largest stash of its own gold. “Central banks live from their trust,” he says. “Our campaign has the ability to put that trust in question.” ---
**Author:** ![busterpickle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-germany-ask-for-their-gold-back-thats-stored-in-the-usa-did-the-us-refuse/836885/28 "2019-07-15T04:05:13Z")
If there was to be an audit then other countries would know other countries deposit amounts. That’s valuable information. Probably requires a very high clearance to know those numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-germany-ask-for-their-gold-back-thats-stored-in-the-usa-did-the-us-refuse/836885/29 "2019-07-15T13:15:47Z")
> [@bardos](#): > > …the amount of a country’s gold stores, its buying and selling, are really important financial figures and is ofttimes highly classified information. > [@electronbee](#): > > Probably requires a very high clearance to know those numbers. I hate to use the C-word twice in one thread, but can anyone provide a cite that suggests that Federal Reserve information is classified? Like you need a clearance? I am pretty skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-germany-ask-for-their-gold-back-thats-stored-in-the-usa-did-the-us-refuse/836885/30 "2019-07-15T14:08:19Z")
> [@electronbee](#): > > If there was to be an audit then other countries would know other countries deposit amounts. That’s valuable information. Probably requires a very high clearance to know those numbers. I imagine that Germany’s gold can be inspected and audited without needing to touch the vault of any other country or entity. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-germany-ask-for-their-gold-back-thats-stored-in-the-usa-did-the-us-refuse/836885/31 "2019-07-17T04:28:48Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I imagine that Germany’s gold can be inspected and audited without needing to touch the vault of any other country or entity. IF it was segregated like it should. One of the questions was (is) is the gold really segregated by owner. ---
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-germany-ask-for-their-gold-back-thats-stored-in-the-usa-did-the-us-refuse/836885/32 "2019-07-17T15:23:46Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > IF it was segregated like it should. One of the questions was (is) is the gold really segregated by owner. I’ve seen the vault on a tour of the NY Fed. The gold was further divided up into individual cages which the tour guide said represented individual countries, and he mentioned that both countries would typically send representatives to oversee a gold transfer between two of them. The cages weren’t actually labeled by country as they were in Die Hard 3, also they’re light blue, not black, and the vault is much smaller. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-germany-ask-for-their-gold-back-thats-stored-in-the-usa-did-the-us-refuse/836885.md?page=1)