# Did Ginger Rogers really do everything Fred Astaire did but backwards and in high heels? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 19, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165 "2010-11-19T00:21:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/1 "2010-11-19T00:21:24Z")
“Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but she did it backwards and in high heels.” I am not a dance expert, but the saying does not appear to be true to me. Maybe some dance experts can chime in. Looking at famous saying in parts: > [@](#): > > did everything Fred Astaire did I do not think this part in true. Fred Astaire did many dance moves that Ginger Rogers never did. He was a better dancer. (She was a better actor.) > [@](#): > > backwards Why is left forward and right backwards? As to moving towards each other, they seems towards each other at a pretty even rate. > [@](#): > > in high heels A Google image search does not show Ginger Rogers wearing high heels. Even when she wears heels, they do appear to be high heels: > **[Redirect Notice](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:%2F%2Fwww.divasthesite.com%2Fimages%2FNorma_Shearer%2FWith_Others%2FFred_Astaire_Ginger_Rogers.jpg&imgrefurl=http:%2F%2Fforums.thefashionspot.com%2Ff95%2Ffred-astaire-36359-6.html&usg=__IQvgFLerpTyaEGKNWX-4Al468Fc=&h=305&w=450&sz=29&hl=en&start=70&sig2=b1kma9qlVcglB9vix0eocg&zoom=1&tbnid=RfpRr0tur4HxuM:&tbnh=138&tbnw=166&ei=oMHlTJI4zeGdB8m4xaUN&prev=%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dginger%2Brogers%2Bquotes%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1116%26bih%3D480%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C1826&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=121&vpy=115&dur=100&hovh=185&hovw=273&tx=169&ty=77&oei=k8HlTN2RHcygnQe4j_mDDQ&esq=5&page=6&ndsp=11&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:70&biw=1116&bih=480)** Any truth to this saying? ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/2 "2010-11-19T00:22:44Z")
Is there a way to move this to Cafe Society? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/3 "2010-11-19T00:29:59Z")
Yeah a mod can move it. I reported the post so they’ll see it faster. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/4 "2010-11-19T00:30:56Z")
Done. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/5 "2010-11-19T01:08:15Z")
It was just a pro-feminist saying, not to be taken literally. She didn’t choreograph either (and in her movies w/Fred, they usually gave her all the worst songs, too) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/6 "2010-11-19T01:40:30Z")
Fred also danced with Cyd Charisse and Eleanor Powell, both of whom were as good at dancing as Fred, which Ginger was not. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/7 "2010-11-19T01:44:08Z")
It hyperbole. One telling point was that Astaire danced with many other partners in films, including those who made a name for themselves as dancers before dancing with him (e.g., Powell, Charisse, Vera Ellen, etc.). And Fred was leading Ginger and guiding her way. Ginger was a better than average dancer, but probably the best actress Fred danced with (well, perhaps with Judy Garland). ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/8 "2010-11-19T02:05:08Z")
Those heels may not have been six inch spikes, but they were high enough to put more pressure on the front of the foot and to compromise balance. “Backwards” does not refer to right and left; in basic ‘ballroom’ dancing, the man steps forward and the woman, backwards. Most people believe Rogers was not of the same caliber as Astaire, but then, few were. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/9 "2010-11-19T02:09:42Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > He was a better dancer. (She was a better actor.) Slightly off topic, but I gotta disagree with this part. My memory says that she was a generic actress at best, while he was - if not a _great_ actor - at least a charming and comfortable one. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/10 "2010-11-19T03:04:50Z")
And of course, [sometimes he danced without any partner at all](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8n7WQIXQDs#t=0m51s). ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/11 "2010-11-19T03:35:54Z")
It’s not meant to be literal. It’s meant to highlight the fact that the achievements of women aren’t always recognized as such if the women are in a traditional female role. > [@Chronos](#): > > And of course, [sometimes he danced without any partner at all](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8n7WQIXQDs#t=0m51s). Linked to that–[Gene Kelly tap dancing on roller skates](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aus1PA5-SyI&feature=related). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/12 "2010-11-19T03:45:14Z")
OK, First I have to ask why people think that sayings (or adages or slogans or whatever) have to be absolutely literally true or accurate for each and every possible case. That’s a general question, because we get a lot of threads like this. If you abandon the need for a saying to be absolutely literally true or accurate for each and every possible case, then how do you not get what the intent is? That’s also a general question, because it seems to be true for a lot of these threads. Grumble. Anyway, the obvious meaning and intent is that many things that are taken for granted about women are in fact difficult, restrictive, and not required for men. Men did not - and do not - have to wear high heels. [First Google Image hit for Ginger Rogers dancing](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3368/3230626584_5145221efa.jpg) Whenever men wear high heels, to dress in drag, e.g., they loudly complain about how difficult it is to even move in them, let alone dance in them. (Men never have to run in high heels. Joanna Lumley used to run at top speed in four-inch heels for The New Avengers and it is probably the most awesome physical feat that never gets mentioned.) Men also don’t have to wear girdles, or corsets, or spanks. Men don’t have to spend hours on hair and makeup. Men don’t have to shave or wax their entire bodies. Men don’t have to never age over 30. Men, in short, get a wildly disproportionate percentage of the credit a wildly disproportionate percentage of the time, even when women are doing an equal share or performing more difficult acts. Please don’t try to dispute this. Western culture has this as a core principle and has since forever, and it has not changed except for the barest amount to this day. That’s why. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/13 "2010-11-19T04:30:50Z")
> [@j66](#): > > in basic ‘ballroom’ dancing, the man steps forward and the woman, backwards. Do Rogers and Astaire do a lot of basic ballroom dancing? She sees stepping forward about the same as him. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/14 "2010-11-19T05:19:58Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > Do Rogers and Astaire do a lot of basic ballroom dancing? She sees stepping forward about the same as him. In most ballroom dances, the dance begins with the man stepping forward and the woman stepping backward. Later in the dance, usually, they’ll reverse it. She probably averages slightly more backwards that he does; that’s the way things break down in ballroom, because sometimes the man steps forward, then executes a turn or other trick, so she never gets to catch up. But she certainly has many forward steps, too. It’s also difficult to tell what’s going on, exactly, because the turns mask the forward-or-backward qualities of the steps; something that starts as a forward step may end as a sideways step. Very difficult to quantify. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/15 "2010-11-19T05:51:28Z")
First, as to why people think these sayings have to be literally true or accurate. They don’t. But what this particular saying is trying to put across is the idea that Ginger Rogers did the same thing as Astaire, and more, and with less effort, or something like that, which is false all the way along. Ginger was a great dancer, a good actress, a better singer than Fred IMO, and yet, she did not (a) do everything he did (b) backwards or even © in high heels. She was in high heels part of the time. Ballroom dancing being what it is, she was backwards about as much of the time as he was. In Rogers/Astaire movies, he always did an extra couple of dances, and they were pretty flash. So this saying fails in every premise. The intent here was to say “women are equal,” or something like that. There are much better examples that actually work, if you need to say it. Try Eleanor Powell instead of Ginger Rogers, take out the backwards part, and mention that she _taught a dog to dance_ in one of her movies. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/16 "2010-11-19T06:00:12Z")
Also, dancing in high heels is no big deal, as you’re on the balls of your feet anyway, most of the time, or else you’re doing it wrong. All those ladies probably did ballet at one point, and compared to pointe shoes, heels are much, much easier. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/17 "2010-11-19T06:28:51Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > It’s not meant to be literal. It’s meant to highlight the fact that the achievements of women aren’t always recognized as such if the women are in a traditional female role. Next item of discussion: Are there really no potential uses a fish might have for a bicycle? ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/18 "2010-11-19T08:08:44Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Western culture has this as a core principle and has since forever, and it has not changed except for the barest amount to this day. I pretty much agree except for the idea that this is a special problem of Western culture. The problems you outlined are at least as prevalent in Asia and Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_A.Robrin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sam_a.robrin/32/14497_2.png) [@Sam\_A.Robrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_A.Robrin)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/19 "2010-11-19T08:09:44Z")
It was another of those “Grrrl POW!-er” slogans that no male dared challenge if he ever wanted to “get any.” It has as much truth as the “rule of thumb” canard or the Super Bowl Sunday / domestic violence connection. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/20 "2010-11-19T13:34:07Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > Slightly off topic, but I gotta disagree with this part. My memory says that she was a generic actress at best, while he was - if not a _great_ actor - at least a charming and comfortable one. Well, as most commentators say, her reactions and responses to him made Fred seem sexy, which is great acting (Astaire is hardly conventionally handsome). While it’s not an infallible guide (Luise Rainer won two), it’s interesting that Rogers won an Oscar for acting at the peak of her career. Astaire never won one (though he got an honorary one). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165.md?page=2)