# Did Ginger Rogers really do everything Fred Astaire did but backwards and in high heels? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 19, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165 "2010-11-19T00:21:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aeris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Aeris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeris)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/21 "2010-11-19T14:09:58Z")
I believe that tapping in the more lyrical form is easier to do in heels. If we’re talking about more modern tapping like the kind that Gregory Hinds did (which I realize we’re not) then heels are a hinderance. Anyway all I wanted to actually say is…heels don’t have to be high to hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/22 "2010-11-19T14:10:02Z")
Also: I always have heard this statement “_. . . backwards and in heels_,” not “in high heels.” Maybe not a big difference. And I like Rogers as an actress. I think she had excellent comic timing. Catch _The Major and the Minor_ sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/23 "2010-11-19T16:15:13Z")
> [@Sigmagirl](#): > > Also: I always have heard this statement “_. . . backwards and in heels_,” not “in high heels.” Maybe not a big difference. “Heels” always means “high heels” when used in this type of context. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/24 "2010-11-19T17:47:42Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > In most ballroom dances, the dance begins with the man stepping forward and the woman stepping backward. Later in the dance, usually, they’ll reverse it. > > She probably averages slightly more backwards that he does; that’s the way things break down in ballroom, because sometimes the man steps forward, then executes a turn or other trick, so she never gets to catch up. But she certainly has many forward steps, too. It’s also difficult to tell what’s going on, exactly, because the turns mask the forward-or-backward qualities of the steps; something that starts as a forward step may end as a sideways step. Very difficult to quantify. > [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > First, as to why people think these sayings have to be literally true or accurate. They don’t. But what this particular saying is trying to put across is the idea that Ginger Rogers did the same thing as Astaire, and more, and with less effort, or something like that, which is false all the way along. > > Ginger was a great dancer, a good actress, a better singer than Fred IMO, and yet, she did not (a) do everything he did (b) backwards or even (c) in high heels. She was in high heels part of the time. Ballroom dancing being what it is, she was backwards about as much of the time as he was. In Rogers/Astaire movies, he always did an extra couple of dances, and they were pretty flash. So this saying fails in every premise. > > The intent here was to say “women are equal,” or something like that. There are much better examples that actually work, if you need to say it. Try Eleanor Powell instead of Ginger Rogers, take out the backwards part, and mention that she _taught a dog to dance_ in one of her movies. You and the others who are arguing this keep getting hung up in the literalness of the words rather than looking at intent and meaning. Dance is more than saying “women are equal.” It is - ironically - a literal example of men leading and women following. Note what that means. The man, the leader, selects the motion, the direction, the speed, the force, all the aspects that go into a dance step. The women has to respond to these, instantly, perfectly, gracefully, and seemingly effortlessly. Rehearsal helps but there will inevitably in human actions be subtle differences from time to time and take to take. Yet the woman must keep up even when though she has no control over the variations. And yes, she has to do so in heels. Heels force the body forward. It is an extra level of difficulty to do anything backward in heels. Your heels are on the floor for part of the dance, and they shift the central point of gravity forward so that’s another area you must compensate for at every moment. That’s what backward and in high heels means. Not that is is merely equal: that it is literally and physically more difficult to approach a seeming equality, and that we consider them equal is actually a slight to the partner who has to do invisible and unappreciated feats to get to equal. And that makes it a metaphor for the way all females were regarded, and still largely are regarded. > [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > I pretty much agree except for the idea that this is a special problem of Western culture. The problems you outlined are at least as prevalent in Asia and Africa. I’m sure they are. But you know that if I had just made a blanket statement, some of the hyperliteral crowd would try to pull out some counterexample of some time and place. I know as much about Asia and Africa as the next guy, but I’ve studied Western culture. I was confident that I could easily take apart any claim about Western culture, so I limited and qualified that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/25 "2010-11-20T04:09:49Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > It’s not meant to be literal. It’s meant to highlight the fact that the achievements of women aren’t always recognized as such if the women are in a traditional female role.) Which, in this case, appears to rely on a distortion of facts about said achievements - ironic really. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/26 "2010-11-20T06:46:46Z")
> [@Aeris](#): > > I believe that tapping in the more lyrical form is easier to do in heels. If we’re talking about more modern tapping like the kind that Gregory Hinds did (which I realize we’re not) then heels are a hinderance. > > Anyway all I wanted to actually say is…heels don’t have to be high to hurt. I’ve done it in 2-1/2 inch heels, 3-inch heels, and lace-up oxfords. One is not harder or more of a hindrance, but there are differences. I had to adjust the way I did pickups and pullbacks when I switched to the oxfords, for instance–I found them easier in heels, but once I adjusted, no problem. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/27 "2010-11-20T06:54:10Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > You and the others who are arguing this keep getting hung up in the literalness of the words rather than looking at intent and meaning. > … > That’s what backward and in high heels means. Not that is is merely equal: that it is **literally and physically more difficult** to approach a seeming equality, and that we consider them equal is actually a slight to the partner who has to do invisible and unappreciated feats to get to equal. And that makes it a metaphor for the way all females were regarded, and still largely are regarded. Okay…the intent and meaning is something like the old saw that in order to compete with men in the workplace, women have to be twice as good and work twice as hard, but fortunately, this is not difficult. (Old saw also wrong.) But it is NOT literally and physically more difficult to dance that way, and Ginger didn’t do everything Fred did anyway. In the dances she did with him, she did keep up with him, which is no mean feat. But he almost always did a few extra things. So, if you’re going to look at the relative equality, it probably would be more helpful to start from something that can’t be refuted on all levels right off the bat. (Also consider the source of the quote: A cartoon character. Not even one of the brightest cartoon characters.) ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/28 "2010-11-20T14:41:13Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > I’ve done it in 2-1/2 inch heels, 3-inch heels, and lace-up oxfords. One is not harder or more of a hindrance, but there are differences. I had to adjust the way I did pickups and pullbacks when I switched to the oxfords, for instance–I found them easier in heels, but once I adjusted, no problem. Really? I can’t imagine trying to tap in heels, but I never wear heels IRL, so just walking in them always feels a little precarious to me. Any tap move where you’re starting with your weight forward and have to move your toes up/down for the sound before coming back, like pullbacks … yikes, that seems like it would be harder, not easier, in heels. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/29 "2010-11-20T15:16:05Z")
Such was the level of talent that F.A. had I’ll bet if called on to do so he could have danced backwards in high heels and been BETTER then his partners. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/30 "2010-11-20T16:47:30Z")
Well looking at some of those dancers on Youtube, somehow I doubt even FA could have outdone Eleanor Powell, and some of the movements, the high kicks and points would not have been in his mainstream repertoire. I’ve just got to say though, thanks for all those who named those dancers, scintillating stuff, incredible balance and timing. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/31 "2010-11-20T17:01:53Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > (Also consider the source of the quote: A cartoon character. Not even one of the brightest cartoon characters.) Faith Whittlesey is a cartoon character? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/32 "2010-11-20T18:03:45Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Okay…the intent and meaning is something like the old saw that in order to compete with men in the workplace, women have to be twice as good and work twice as hard, but fortunately, this is not difficult. (Old saw also wrong.) I don’t know how old you are, but I’m old enough to remember that under any but the most ridiculous hyperliteral meaning (exactly twice?) how true this used to be. Why was this true? Because lots and lots of mediocre or worse men could easily find jobs but only the exceptional woman could break through. Compared to the average idiot who could get work simply because he was a man, the average woman in that occupation was far superior. She may have been no more than equal to the most superior man but that’s not the point. Just to overcome the barriers put before women, she had to be exceptional when most men didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/33 "2010-11-20T18:16:06Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Faith Whittlesey is a cartoon character? Sure, you never watched the old _Faith Whittlesey and Bullwinkle and Friends Cartoon Hour_? Man, those were some great Saturday mornings. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/34 "2010-11-20T22:20:19Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Well looking at some of those dancers on Youtube, somehow I doubt even FA could have outdone Eleanor Powell, and some of the movements, the high kicks and points would not have been in his mainstream repertoire. > > I’ve just got to say though, thanks for all those who named those dancers, scintillating stuff, incredible balance and timing. Check out Vera-Ellen. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/35 "2010-11-20T22:27:46Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Faith Whittlesey is a cartoon character? It came from a Frank & Ernest cartoon. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/36 "2010-11-20T22:44:33Z")
Ginger Rogers never put out oil well fires in a dress and heels. Oh, wait. Yeah, that was Red Adair. I always get those two confused. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/37 "2010-11-20T22:53:09Z")
Wow. I’d never heard of that till today. I googled and thought Faith Whittlesey was a real person. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/38 "2010-11-20T23:17:40Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Wow. I’d never heard of that till today. I googled and thought Faith Whittlesey was a real person. She may be a real person, but the line about Ginger Rogers came from a Frank & Ernest cartoon. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/39 "2010-11-20T23:18:18Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > [Gene Kelly tap dancing on roller skates](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aus1PA5-SyI&feature=related). 🙂 Holy shit. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165/40 "2010-11-20T23:18:41Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Ginger Rogers never put out oil well fires in a dress and heels. Oh, wait. Yeah, that was Red Adair. I always get those two confused. Red Adair was a cross dresser? I never heard that before! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-ginger-rogers-really-do-everything-fred-astaire-did-but-backwards-and-in-high-heels/561165.md?page=3)