# Did God choose the value of Pi **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733 "2003-11-06T17:48:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/21 "2003-11-07T17:08:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bippy the Beardless \* > \*\*The reason for the question is this. If God did not choose Pi to have its particular value, then the value of Pi is something that exists without God creating it. \*\* God created the world and Pi is derived from it’s axioms, so God also created Pi… ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/22 "2003-11-07T19:03:32Z")
Well if one believes that the Bible is literal truth, then God did define the value of pi: [quote] And he made the molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and the height thereof was five cubits; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about." [quote] Petr Beckman follows the early Church’s take on this in “A History of Pi” - since pi was known and defined in the Bible, no scientific work on it was needed or appropriate. Anything that threatened the literal truth of the Bible was heresy. Mathematics flourished in Arab lands but no progress was made on pi in Western lands until Fibonacci in the early 1200’s and no significant progress until the Church’s influence waned in the 15th century. If God created the universe by creating its rules, then everything that flows from its rules is a result of God (like flonks says), and therefore studying how it really happens and really is (even when such contradicts sacred texts) is beginning to know God. Is, to a believer, a religious experience. Remember what God answered to Moses when he asked to directly behold God’s presence: (Exodus 34): > [@](#): > > 20)But" He said “you cannot see My face, for Man may not see Me and live.” 21)And the Lord said "See, there is a place near Me. Station yourself on the rock 22)and as My Presence passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock and sheild you with My hand until I have passed by. 23) Then I will take My hand away and you will see My back; but My face must not be seen. If there is a God, then God’s essential nature can be revealed only by studying God’s wake, by studying the world and its rules. For that is more directly God than any text. Doface, my understanding is that such randomness of its infinite length is implicit in its being a transcendental number. But I am sure that others can explain more succintly than I. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/23 "2003-11-07T19:07:45Z")
Argh! Make that an “/quote” after the first Bible quote! (preview is my friend preview is my friend preview is my friend) ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/24 "2003-11-07T19:13:43Z")
**Dogface** , read **Bytegeist** ’s first post. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/25 "2003-11-07T19:13:58Z")
(Try again.) Well if one believes that the Bible is literal truth, then God did define the value of pi: > [@](#): > > And he made the molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and the height thereof was five cubits; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about." Petr Beckman follows the early Church’s take on this in “A History of Pi” - since pi was known and defined in the Bible, no scientific work on it was needed or appropriate. Anything that threatened the literal truth of the Bible was heresy. Mathematics flourished in Arab lands but no progress was made on pi in Western lands until Fibonacci in the early 1200’s and no significant progress until the Church’s influence waned in the 15th century. If God created the universe by creating its rules, then everything that flows from its rules is a result of God (like flonks says), and therefore studying how it really happens and really is (even when such contradicts sacred texts) is beginning to know God. Is, to a believer, a religious experience. Remember what God answered to Moses when he asked to directly behold God’s presence: (Exodus 34): > [@](#): > > 20)But" He said “you cannot see My face, for Man may not see Me and live.” 21)And the Lord said "See, there is a place near Me. Station yourself on the rock 22)and as My Presence passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock and sheild you with My hand until I have passed by. 23) Then I will take My hand away and you will see My back; but My face must not be seen. If there is a God, then God’s essential nature can be revealed only by studying God’s wake, by studying the world and its rules. For that is more directly God than any text. Doface, my understanding is that such randomness of its infinite length is implicit in its being a transcendental number. But I am sure that others can explain more succintly than I. (Better.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/26 "2003-11-07T23:29:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Doface, my understanding is that such randomness of its infinite length is implicit in its being a transcendental number. So is the number .001000100000100000001… algebraic? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/27 "2003-11-08T00:56:19Z")
Dogface, my understanding may be flawed. I can offer up no proof that numbers with predictable patterns are algbraic. Nor can I prove that transcedental numbers cannot ever have predictable patterns, or do not if followed out far enough … my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/28 "2003-11-09T01:41:11Z")
What do you consider to be a “predicatable” pattern? The digits of pi are predictable in the sense that they can be determined by a deterministic algorithm. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/29 "2003-11-09T18:12:29Z")
But they have no identifiable pattern. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/30 "2003-11-09T20:03:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DSeid \* > \*\*But they have no identifiable pattern. \*\* There’s an algorithm that can compute the nth hexadecimal digit of [symbol]p[/symbol] without knowing any of the previous ones. Sounds like a pattern to me. ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/31 "2003-11-09T21:13:41Z")
[Weebl] God, when come back bring Pi. [/Weebl] ---
**Author:** ![dakravel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@dakravel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dakravel)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/32 "2003-11-10T07:25:18Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s an algorithm that can compute the nth hexadecimal digit of p without knowing any of the previous ones. Sounds like a pattern to me. I’d be interested in seeing something about that algorithm. If someone asked me to make such a thing, I’d simply pick a circle of known circumference and radius, and pull whatever digits I needed out of the ratio. But if they have an algorithm that truly calculates pi with a different, non-empirical method, I think that’d be pretty cool. ---
**Author:** ![j\_sum1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8baadc/32.png) [@j\_sum1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j_sum1)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/33 "2003-11-10T11:11:02Z")
Can I blow up this argument a little. I have often wondered about the physical constants – charge on an electron, plancks constant, velocity of light etc. Are these constants related to physical axioms in the same way that pi relates to mathematical axioms? That is to say, are their ratios somehow fixed so that it would be impossible (sorry, can’t think of a better word) for there to exist a stable universe with different values. I don’t know the answers to these questions, nor to **Bippy** ’s original question. Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/34 "2003-11-10T12:39:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dakravel \* > \*\*I’d be interested in seeing something about that algorithm. If someone asked me to make such a thing, I’d simply pick a circle of known circumference and radius, and pull whatever digits I needed out of the ratio. But if they have an algorithm that truly calculates pi with a different, non-empirical method, I think that’d be pretty cool. \*\* Is it even possible to exactly know both the circumference and radius of a circle, considering the relationship between them? If the radius is 1, the circumference is 2\*pi… and measuring the circumference exactly will be no easier than calculating all the digits of pi. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/35 "2003-11-10T15:13:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dakravel \* > \*\*I’d be interested in seeing something about that algorithm. If someone asked me to make such a thing, I’d simply pick a circle of known circumference and radius, and pull whatever digits I needed out of the ratio. But if they have an algorithm that truly calculates pi with a different, non-empirical method, I think that’d be pretty cool. \*\* [Here](http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Bailey-Borwein-PlouffeAlgorithm.html). ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/36 "2003-11-10T17:11:16Z")
Of course, the real question is: could god create a Pi so big that even he couldn’t eat it? ---
**Author:** ![FriendRob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecc23a/32.png) [@FriendRob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendRob)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/37 "2003-11-10T20:53:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by j\_sum1 \* > \*\*Can I blow up this argument a little. I have often wondered about the physical constants – charge on an electron, plancks constant, velocity of light etc. Are these constants related to physical axioms in the same way that pi relates to mathematical axioms? That is to say, are their ratios somehow fixed so that it would be impossible (sorry, can’t think of a better word) for there to exist a stable universe with different values. > > I don’t know the answers to these questions, nor to **Bippy** ’s original question. > > Any thoughts? \*\* As far as current physical theories go, there is no way of deriving any of the values you mention from any underlying principle. The string theorists claim that at least some physical constants can, in principle, be derived from string theory, but here we are 30 years later and still no one has succeeded in doing that. And, according to some string theorists, there should exist other universes with different values of these constants. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/38 "2003-11-11T22:28:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DSeid \* > \*\*But they have no identifiable pattern. \*\* I don’t understand your thinking here. They follow the pattern that they are all the digits of pi. What do you mean by an identifiable pattern? What determines what is and is not a pattern? ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733/39 "2003-11-11T22:38:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shalmanese \* > The thing that really brought **Contact** (Carl Sagan) alive for me was the implication that it contained. . . . It was probably the closest I ever got to a religious experience. \*\* Yeah, just the title of this thread immediately evoked that last chapter of the book – which blew me away the first time I read it. What a fascinating idea – and coming from an atheist to boot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-choose-the-value-of-pi/211733.md?page=1)