# Did God lie to the Jews? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2007, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849 "2007-03-14T04:26:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Andrew\_Bird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/da6949/32.png) [@Andrew\_Bird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andrew_Bird)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/1 "2007-03-14T04:26:09Z")
Looking at the Bible as Story where Yahweh is character, did Yahweh lie to Zerbbabel and the other Jews? "‘Who of you is left who saw this house in its former glory? How does it look to you now? Does it not seem to you like nothing? But now be strong, O Zerubbabel,’ declares the LORD. ‘Be strong, O Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest. Be strong, all you people of the land,’ declares the LORD, ‘and work. For I am with you,’ declares the LORD Almighty. ‘This is what I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt. And my Spirit remains among you. Do not fear.’ “This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land. I will shake all nations, and the desired of all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the LORD Almighty. ‘The silver is mine and the gold is mine,’ declares the LORD Almighty. ‘The glory of this present house will be greater than the glory of the former house,’ says the LORD Almighty. ‘And in this place I will grant peace,’ declares the LORD Almighty.”" Haggai 2:3-10 Is there any way to spin this? Is what way was this promise fufilled? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/2 "2007-03-14T04:45:14Z")
Short answer lacking all nuance: Nope. They got a bigger, better temple out of it. (Unfortunately, about 590 years after this declaration, the Romans knocked that one down, too.) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/3 "2007-03-16T06:10:09Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Short answer lacking all nuance: Nope. They got a bigger, better temple out of it. (Unfortunately, about 590 years after this declaration, the Romans knocked that one down, too.) [/QUOTE] Another view full of nuance- All promises to Israel of national restoration are conditional as to Israel’s faithfulness to the Covenant. Israel was restored, the Temple rebuilt, defiled, then rededicated & later enlarged by Herod. So far, so good. And then somebody came along, declared the Temple to be made a harbor for swindlers, and foretold its destruction within a generation after his departure. That somebody is thought by many to have been held the Presence of the Lord, with authority to be bring peace or judgement to the nation and the Temple. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/4 "2007-03-16T07:19:16Z")
I don’t understand the OP. The temple was rebuilt, right? So what was the lie supposed to be? You mean perhaps God’s claim that “in this place, I will grant peace”? Certainly there hasn’t been uninterupted peace around the Temple Mount since 500 B.C., but then God doesn’t promise an _endless_ peace (if memory serves, the Jews did get a period of peace (albeit as subject people) for several hundred years after the end of the Babylonian Captivity until after the death of Alexander the Great and the time of Maccabees ), or even state that He’s necessarily talking about a military peace. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/5 "2007-03-16T08:25:23Z")
Well, he lied to Adam and Eve. He said the fruit of knowledge would kill them. \*_G.3.2. \*\*\* And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:_ \*_G.3.3. \*\*\* but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die._ **G.3.4.** _And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:_ \*\*G.3.5. \*\* \*for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. \* So . . . God lied, while the devil told the truth. How fucked up is _that_? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/6 "2007-03-16T08:43:10Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] Well, he lied to Adam and Eve. He said the fruit of knowledge would kill them. \ So . . . God lied, while the devil told the truth. How fucked up is _that_? [/QUOTE] The impression I’d always had/heard was that it was eating of the fruit that lead to the admission of death into the world. So, while the fruit didn’t kill Adam and Eve, eating from it did lead to their deaths. Of course, God **did** lie to Abraham about the need to sacrifice Isaac. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/7 "2007-03-16T08:47:15Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] Well, he lied to Adam and Eve. He said the fruit of knowledge would kill them. \*_G.3.2. \*\*\* And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:_ \*_G.3.3. \*\*\* but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die._ **G.3.4.** _And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:_ \*\*G.3.5. \*\* \*for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. \* So . . . God lied, while the devil told the truth. How fucked up is _that_? [/QUOTE] Standard Christian theology is that Adam and Eve would have lived forever if they had not eaten of the fruit - that Death is the ultimate punishment for sin/rebellion ([Romans 6:23](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=6&verse=23&version=31&context=verse)). ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/8 "2007-03-16T09:05:59Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] Well, he lied to Adam and Eve. He said the fruit of knowledge would kill them. \*_G.3.2. \*\*\* And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:_ \*_G.3.3. \*\*\* but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die._ **G.3.4.** _And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:_ \*\*G.3.5. \*\* \*for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. \* So . . . God lied, while the devil told the truth. How fucked up is _that_? [/QUOTE] Your quote does not demonstrate that God said that the _fruit_ would kill them. He said: Leave it alone, or you will die. Like if I am an armed guard in a prison, and I tell you: Don’t step over this line, or you will die. Does the line kill you when you step over it? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/9 "2007-03-16T09:27:08Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Your quote does not demonstrate that God said that the _fruit_ would kill them. He said: Leave it alone, or you will die. Like if I am an armed guard in a prison, and I tell you: Don’t step over this line, or you will die. Does the line kill you when you step over it? [/QUOTE] Wow. Are you God’s lawyer? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/10 "2007-03-16T09:46:18Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] Wow. Are you God’s lawyer? [/QUOTE] If you’re the Devil’s Advocate. Do you normally get this snippy when you get called on a simple matter of fact? _checks poster’s name_. Withdrawn! ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/11 "2007-03-16T11:31:01Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] \ …ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. So . . . God lied, while the devil told the truth. [/QUOTE] The devil told the truth, eh? Somebody’s a clubhouse lawyer here, for sure, and it isn’t Malacandra. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/12 "2007-03-16T12:14:35Z")
Of course God didn’t lie. God never lies, because he doesn’t exist. …or, inasmuch as any fictional character in a narrative can lie, yes, he does, or at least contradicts himself quite a lot. Did God mislead? Well, if you take the bible as “the” story of the judeo-christian account, as opposed to a series of unlinked allegories added to a tome over time, I think you’d have to say yes, he misled all peoples referenced therein, to one extent or another. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/13 "2007-03-16T12:17:25Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] Well, he lied to Adam and Eve. He said the fruit of knowledge would kill them. \*_G.3.2. \*\*\* And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:_ \*_G.3.3. \*\*\* but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die._ **G.3.4.** _And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:_ \*\*G.3.5. \*\* \*for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. \* So . . . God lied, while the devil told the truth. How fucked up is _that_? [/QUOTE] What devil? The Serpant in Genesis isn’t the devil, just an ordinary talking snake. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/14 "2007-03-16T12:44:05Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Your quote does not demonstrate that God said that the _fruit_ would kill them. He said: Leave it alone, or you will die. Like if I am an armed guard in a prison, and I tell you: Don’t step over this line, or you will die. Does the line kill you when you step over it? [/QUOTE] Except according to the KJV, he says they’d die the _same day_ in which they ate the fruit. > [@KJV](#): > > 16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: > > 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: **for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.** But then there’s nothing in the Bible that says God can’t lie, so I don’t see the inconsistancy. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/15 "2007-03-16T12:49:16Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] Except according to the KJV, he says they’d die the _same day_ in which they ate the fruit. But then there’s nothing in the Bible that says God can’t lie, so I don’t see the inconsistancy. [/QUOTE] Actually in the Hebrew, the threat is “dying, you shall die”, which can well mean that on that day, they would begin dying/become mortal. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/16 "2007-03-16T13:17:19Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] just an ordinary talking snake [/QUOTE] Is there any other kind? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/17 "2007-03-16T13:27:54Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] Except according to the KJV, he says they’d die the _same day_ in which they ate the fruit. (Genesis 2: 16, 17) But then there’s nothing in the Bible that says God can’t lie, so I don’t see the inconsistancy. [/QUOTE] You’re on firmer ground there, certainly, and a quick check on [biblegateway.com](http://biblegateway.com) supports this with several other translations. However, the day that Adam ate the fruit was the day death was let into the world, and it was only a matter of time for Adam himself - so not such a big lie after all, heh? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/18 "2007-03-16T13:56:53Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Actually in the Hebrew, the threat is “dying, you shall die”, which can well mean that on that day, they would begin dying/become mortal. [/QUOTE] I’m not so certain of that. It is true that a “double expression” of dying is used in the verse. However, such double expressions are very common in Hebrew. They are used in many places (including many of the sins for which the sinner receives the death penalty). I don’t think you can read too much into the double verb. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/19 "2007-03-16T14:04:12Z")
[QUOTE=zev\_steinhardt] I’m not so certain of that. It is true that a “double expression” of dying is used in the verse. However, such double expressions are very common in Hebrew. They are used in many places (including many of the sins for which the sinner receives the death penalty). I don’t think you can read too much into the double verb. Zev Steinhardt [/QUOTE] Understood, but it’s always seemed a good explanation for how God told the truth in spite of Adam & Eve not dying that day. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849/20 "2007-03-16T14:12:51Z")
They died in the sense that their souls and the souls of mankind would no longer be free of sin, naturally from birth. He would now need to send a savior to correct their (and the sins of man in general) sins. It was a death of the soul, more or less. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-god-lie-to-the-jews/395849.md?page=2)