# Did Grace and the Holy Spirit exist before the birth of Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374 "2019-12-25T00:46:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/41 "2020-01-02T22:39:11Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > … > > That said, I have heard the idea that **dropzone** says–except I heard they were in “[Abraham’s Bosom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham)”\* rather than Limbo. But the concept is similar. They waited there until Jesus came and took them to heaven when Jesus descended “to the grave (sheol).” … Waiting for Christ seems to be common, even in end times Rev 6:9-11 where the saint are told to basically go take a nap till Christ is comes. > [@](#): > > 9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O [k]Lord, holy and true, [l]will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/42 "2020-01-02T23:00:11Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > A problem: an immortal deity can’t die, so offering a godling for sacrifice is meaningless. Crucifixion won’t kill any aspect of the three-in-one deity. Nobody died for the human sins introduced by the very same three-in-one deity. I’m reminded of a shell game. Dr Qadgop brought it up in the classic thread. [Jesus gave up a weekend for our sins.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=250144&highlight=Jesus+weekend) and will rot in Hell for it. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/43 "2020-01-03T07:31:13Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > There is usually a different definition of death then the conventional one in which a immortal deity would have no problem with. Actually many people who have died will be raised to life again. Death is not a ending, but either a sleep or existence in the underworld. So no problem there. Now if you consider death as non-existence/ no longer existing then yes a immortal deity could have some difficulty, but that non-existence state doesn’t seem to be what the Bible talks about and more like some churches looking to make hell look not so bad for those who visit there. “Death is not an ending!” he called, leaping from the tower. SPLAT! Well, this time… No, gospel says the nonhuman alien Jehovah sacrificed a son who was actually itself. But no sacrifice was possible because immortal. What a logical pickle. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/44 "2020-01-03T20:12:53Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > how about those born after the time of Christ? Is there only one way for them to be saved? Before, after, whatever - of course there’s only one way: welcoming the presence of the Lord into one’s heart. What forms that can take in this life, or whether it’s still possible after this life is over - who knows? That’s beyond my knowledge. But I’m sure it goes well beyond saying the Sinner’s Prayer, or following the Four Steps to Salvation, or any of those other attempts to impose rules on a Being who, as C.S. Lewis reminds us, is “not a tame Lion.” ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/45 "2020-01-03T21:11:04Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > … > > No, gospel says the nonhuman alien Jehovah sacrificed a son who was actually itself. But no sacrifice was possible because immortal. What a logical pickle. This which you dismiss in such a offhanded manor really contains the ultimate beauty of Love and I doubt you even realize the words you speak shows how your statement betrays you. Do you even have any grasp of what ‘nonhuman alien Jehovah sacrificed a son who was actually itself.’ means? I doubt it. And as such the rest of your statement doesn’t mean much without that understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/46 "2020-01-03T21:14:50Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This which you dismiss in such a offhanded manor really contains the ultimate beauty of Love and I doubt you even realize the words you speak shows how your statement betrays you. > > Do you even have any grasp of what ‘nonhuman alien Jehovah sacrificed a son who was actually itself.’ means? I doubt it. And as such the rest of your statement doesn’t mean much without that understanding. More “If you _really_ understood it you would believe it” nonsense that allows believers to dismiss what they don’t want to talk about. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/47 "2020-01-03T21:18:55Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > In answer to the OP, I think it’s safe to say that the bulk of Christian traditions hold God to be unchanging and unchangeable. Thus if God is Trinity - Father, Son Spirit - then God is Trinity always and at all times, and there is never a time when God is not Trinity. So not only the Spirit but also the Son existed before the birth of Jesus. The birth of Jesus represents the incarnation of the Son, but not the inception of the Son. Yes. There is a tradition that believes the Son existed as Divine Wisdom prior to the incarnation, so the Son was around at the beginning. As was the Holy Spirit. Those parts of Trinity may have manifested themselves differently about 2000 years ago, but they always existed. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/48 "2020-01-04T13:15:46Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Before, after, whatever - of course there’s only one way: welcoming the presence of the Lord into one’s heart. > > What forms that can take in this life, or whether it’s still possible after this life is over - who knows? That’s beyond my knowledge. But I’m sure it goes well beyond saying the Sinner’s Prayer, or following the Four Steps to Salvation, or any of those other attempts to impose rules on a Being who, as C.S. Lewis reminds us, is “not a tame Lion.” This is so strange to me as an unbeliever. We’re talking about where you spend eternity, next to which your actual life is almost literally meaningless – you spend an infinitesimal living and then an infinity either saved or not. There really is no more important of a religious question as this, as far as I can tell, and yet the magic eight ball comes back with Reply Hazy. Different denominations and different religions come up with different answers to this most crucial of all questions. Some of them seem to imply that the coming of Jesus made it harder to be saved, not easier – if you could be saved before by “just” taking the Lord into your heart before, now you have to take a very specific version of Him, so Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and so on, are now no longer welcome where before they could, I don’t know, be righteous and good and maybe get in. I’m not really looking for a response – I think this is an unbridgeable gap between believers and the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/49 "2020-01-04T14:03:02Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > This is so strange to me as an unbeliever. We’re talking about where you spend eternity, next to which your actual life is almost literally meaningless – you spend an infinitesimal living and then an infinity either saved or not. Not as I see it. Your life and possible death here on earth is part of your eternal existence. (I believe at the point of death of the body, or right before, the Lord will come to take the person, thus not experience death - however some will chose death. I believe Jesus talks about this, we see it in the stoning of Stephan, and also how God took Enoch away and some other places like Paul describes in his letters. ). Also death (hell) is not the end, but a place where one can descend into (for a purpose ) and also be raised out of. It’s all part of a eternal life. > [@](#): > > There really is no more important of a religious question as this, as far as I can tell, and yet the magic eight ball comes back with Reply Hazy. Different denominations and different religions come up with different answers to this most crucial of all questions. I once believed this, but as I studied some faiths and dabbled in others, I have found that faiths, even intentionally made up ones . such as the FSM or Jedi, converge around what the Buddha called Dharma or universal truths, but differentiate themselves around cultures (dogma). The different religions are divergent in dogma and convergent in Dharma. Not that everyone has the exact same Dharma, but aspects of it such as the eastern concept of Karma, and the biblical doctrine of you reap what you sow. Both are trying to express the same universal law, but do so in cultural context. There are many more such examples including coming to God. The Bible states ‘seek and you shall find’ I believe this is a universal principal - or at least a aspect of it, and why even made up religions will converge around Dharma and they will start revealing universal truths mixed in to culture (which the FSM certainly has cultural influences). > [@](#): > > Some of them seem to imply that the coming of Jesus made it harder to be saved, not easier – if you could be saved before by “just” taking the Lord into your heart before, now you have to take a very specific version of Him, so Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and so on, are now no longer welcome where before they could, I don’t know, be righteous and good and maybe get in. Religions are not perfect, even the Dharma is always expressed imperfectally. > [@](#): > > I’m not really looking for a response – I think this is an unbridgeable gap between believers and the rest of us. Well you posted here and got one anyway :). But I feel that last part is the assertion of dogma on the religious side has erected the barrier that makes that unbridgeable gap, as you have expressed above. Religious folk usually combine the two (Dharma and dogma) and thus create that gap, but that’s only a cultural difference. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/50 "2020-01-05T05:14:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This which you dismiss in such a offhanded manor really contains the ultimate beauty of Love and I doubt you even realize the words you speak shows how your statement betrays you. **Xian dictionary:** Death = eternal life. Intolerance = love. Tragedy = divine will. Genocide = divine will. Infanticide = joy. Incoherence = revelation. Fantasy = prophesy. Pi = three. > [@](#): > > Do you even have any grasp of what ‘nonhuman alien Jehovah sacrificed a son who was actually itself.’ means? I doubt it. And as such the rest of your statement doesn’t mean much without that understanding. “Nonhuman alien Jehovah sacrificed a son who was actually itself” means exactly what I wrote. Jehovah (previously the Ba’alite war deity) was neither terrestrial nor human. The bit it claimed to have sacrificed, echoing earlier tales of divine self-sacrifices, was itself divinely omnipresent and thus could not be killed - lost a weekend, maybe. You are free to believe whatever you want. I won’t convert you. Enjoy! ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/51 "2020-01-05T13:21:09Z")
WOW, I have never seen hardball Jewish Apologetics against Christian doctrines, such as the trinity. I don’t know how accurate his Jewish theology is but he sure makes the case. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/_Joz6vKSh1o/hqdefault.jpg "Is The Trinity Biblical? - Rabbi Tovia Singer") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Joz6vKSh1o) ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/52 "2020-01-06T01:40:46Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > WOW, I have never seen hardball Jewish Apologetics against Christian doctrines, such as the trinity. I don’t know how accurate his Jewish theology is but he sure makes the case. > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_Joz6vKSh1o&t=351s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Joz6vKSh1o&t=351s) I only uTube for music. Is a transcription or summary available? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/53 "2020-01-06T06:49:21Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > “Nonhuman alien Jehovah sacrificed a son who was actually itself” means exactly what I wrote. Jehovah (previously the Ba’alite war deity) was neither terrestrial nor human. The bit it claimed to have sacrificed, echoing earlier tales of divine self-sacrifices, was itself divinely omnipresent and thus could not be killed - lost a weekend, maybe. I’ve seen some Christians who get the sacrifice a weekend for your sins stuff say that the sacrifice was the agony on the cross. And to drive the point in, as it were, Christians throughout history have tortured those who had wrong beliefs ten times as much as Jesus got tortured. BTW, I believe I saw the lost a weekend trope back 20 years or so in alt.atheism. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/54 "2020-01-06T12:54:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve seen some Christians who get the sacrifice a weekend for your sins stuff say that the sacrifice was the agony on the cross. And to drive the point in, as it were, Christians throughout history have tortured those who had wrong beliefs ten times as much as Jesus got tortured. > > BTW, I believe I saw the lost a weekend trope back 20 years or so in alt.atheism. The agony seems to be from those who Jesus Loves turn against him, and the father apparently forsake him. Ultimately to be left suspended above the earth without a home either in heaven or earth, rejected by both. Everything he knew as a eternal being and eternally live for and believed came crashed down into his worst nightmare. And just to add, at that point requesting forgiveness. Normally Jesus would forgive directly, but here Jesus felt or was so cut off from eternity/the Father that he requested it in prayer from the Father. For a eternally good being that is beyond time, that’s pretty rough. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/55 "2020-01-06T14:36:36Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Ultimately to be left suspended above the earth without a home either in heaven or earth, rejected by both. I have no idea what you are referring to here. When was Jesus sent into orbit? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/56 "2020-01-06T14:53:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I have no idea what you are referring to here. When was Jesus sent into orbit? Hung on the cross, suspended above the earth. Related to the curse of those who are hung on a tree. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/57 "2020-01-06T15:02:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Hung on the cross, suspended above the earth. Related to the curse of those who are hung on a tree. No, being suspended a few feet up in the air is nowhere near being “suspended above the Earth”. BTW-He wasn’t “hung on a tree” either. That is like saying that someone who was struck by a wooden cart was “attacked by a tree”. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/58 "2020-01-06T15:12:49Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > This is so strange to me as an unbeliever. We’re talking about where you spend eternity, next to which your actual life is almost literally meaningless – you spend an infinitesimal living and then an infinity either saved or not. You do? That’s outside the scope of my knowledge. _Waaaaaaaaaaaay_ outside it. As in “shit I can only guess at.” ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/59 "2020-01-06T15:35:03Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > You do? That’s outside the scope of my knowledge. _Waaaaaaaaaaaay_ outside it. As in “shit I can only guess at.” Well, so I’ve been told by Christians (not Jews, since they don’t really have an afterlife from what I’ve gathered). I guess I could be misinformed – are you saying that the mainstream Christian view is that the whether the afterlife exists is and it’s unknown whether accepting Jesus as your savior is the way to that afterlife (if it exists at all)? I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, but I don’t know how else to understand what you wrote here. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/60 "2020-01-06T18:31:54Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Well, so I’ve been told by Christians (not Jews, since they don’t really have an afterlife from what I’ve gathered). I guess I could be misinformed – are you saying that the mainstream Christian view is that the whether the afterlife exists is and it’s unknown whether accepting Jesus as your savior is the way to that afterlife (if it exists at all)? > > I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, but I don’t know how else to understand what you wrote here. Our conversation seems to be bouncing back and forth between what I believe, what mainstream and other Christians believe, what you think they believe, and I’m losing track. My last answer represented my beliefs alone. But most mainstream Protestant denominations aren’t going to tell you that you need to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior before you die in order to not roast in Hell for eternity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374.md?page=4)