# Did Grace and the Holy Spirit exist before the birth of Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374 "2019-12-25T00:46:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/61 "2020-01-06T19:12:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Our conversation seems to be bouncing back and forth between what I believe, what mainstream and other Christians believe, what you think they believe, and I’m losing track. > > My last answer represented my beliefs alone. But most mainstream Protestant denominations aren’t going to tell you that you need to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior before you die in order to not roast in Hell for eternity. I’m not really sure what the OP is looking for in this thread – maybe he’s looking for individual opinions rather than opinions of more standard Christian denominations. For me, individual opinions aren’t too interesting because I don’t actually know you – you could be the second coming of Aquinas or a total religious whackjob. In your most recent response, you seem to imply that most denominations are Universalists (I think I’m using the correct term), which is news to me. Maybe living in the US gives me a skewed view of the world, since the Evangelicals are the loudest, with the most radio stations and billboards. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/62 "2020-01-06T19:53:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The agony seems to be from those who Jesus Loves turn against him, and the father apparently forsake him. Ultimately to be left suspended above the earth without a home either in heaven or earth, rejected by both. Everything he knew as a eternal being and eternally live for and believed came crashed down into his worst nightmare. And just to add, at that point requesting forgiveness. Normally Jesus would forgive directly, but here Jesus felt or was so cut off from eternity/the Father that he requested it in prayer from the Father. For a eternally good being that is beyond time, that’s pretty rough. Haven’t heard that take on it. If Jesus did not know what was going on, why exactly should anyone take what he says as having special value? Fact is, he suffered less on the cross than the average felon, since they were not allowed to keep them up when the holiday started. The average criminal was up much longer. As for his last words, it could be something deep, or it could be just “hey, this is not how this Messiah gig is supposed to play out.” Despite Christian quote mining, the Messiah was thought to be the king, the continuation of David, who would vanquish the foes of Judea. Muhammad was a lot closer, in terms of success, to what we were looking for. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/63 "2020-01-06T21:08:26Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > In your most recent response, you seem to imply that most denominations are Universalists (I think I’m using the correct term), which is news to me. Maybe living in the US gives me a skewed view of the world, since the Evangelicals are the loudest, with the most radio stations and billboards. In my experience, most mainline Protestant denominations are heavily universalist, or at least are trending that way. I can tell you the leadership of the Southeastern Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has been pretty universalist for quite some time. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/64 "2020-01-06T23:52:14Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > In my experience, most mainline Protestant denominations are heavily universalist, or at least are trending that way. I can tell you the leadership of the Southeastern Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has been pretty universalist for quite some time. > Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Thanks! I tried specifically looking up whether Lutherans were Universalist, but instead I got references to the Unitarian Universalists, definitions of Universalism (on a Lutheran website, but referring to the denomination), etc. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2020, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/65 "2020-01-07T02:02:24Z")
I haven’t seen many “look we’re universalist” sort of things but the sermons and messages of leadership don’t consign anyone to damnation and if you ask directly they’ll tend to say they believe God’s grace is sufficient for all. Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2020, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/66 "2020-01-07T02:27:34Z")
You gotta remember that the Evangelical Lutherans use a different definition of evangelical. I think I got one who isn’t me to admit that Hitler could very well be in Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2020, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/67 "2020-01-07T02:30:51Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Haven’t heard that take on it. If Jesus did not know what was going on, why exactly should anyone take what he says as having special value? Jesus had to suffer everything common to mankind (so no one can boast). Most of His life, if not all of it, Jesus knew who he was, and was lead directly by the Holy Spirit. But we are asked to take things on faith till we get that direct line to God, some would define that time as blind faith, so Jesus would have to go through that also - without a direct connection to God. The forsaking would seem to be that, he prayed as we do instead of command, he said to the thief that he would be with the Lord in paradise I believe on faith, not from connection. > [@](#): > > Fact is, he suffered less on the cross than the average felon, since they were not allowed to keep them up when the holiday started. The average criminal was up much longer. We get into a GD on this as to what is punishment from the personal perspective and is punishment ‘levels’ for everyone the same. In other words a effective punishment in terms of ‘hurting’ a person may be 50 years in prison for one person, and perhaps another person 1 day in prison, both having the exact same toll on the respective people. Yes I do believe in that, regardless of the suffering of Jesus. But here in the cross there is so much more then the time (what is time for a eternal being, you got to think more outside the box here) . It is rejection from everything & everyone that is the suffering. > [@](#): > > As for his last words, it could be something deep, or it could be just “hey, this is not how this Messiah gig is supposed to play out.” Despite Christian quote mining, the Messiah was thought to be the king, the continuation of David, who would vanquish the foes of Judea. > Muhammad was a lot closer, in terms of success, to what we were looking for. It seemed apparent that the apostles were divinally not allowed to understand much of this ending, and it seemed that Jesus understood that also. Muhammad seemed successful also as to what he has done, so has lots of people such as Buddha, Moses and many more. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2020, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/68 "2020-01-07T03:07:32Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW, I believe I saw the lost a weekend trope back 20 years or so in alt.atheism. I first saw it here a few days ago but then I’d pretty much dropped alt.atheism about 25 years back. _Mea culpa:_ After we built our Heathkit H8 and attached a line-powered 300-baud US Robotics modem, I went online to local BBS’es (before FidoNet) featuring Helen Keller jokes and awful religious puns. Those were the days! Back to OP. Did unseeable stuff exist before, during, and/or after an unverified event? Sure. People constantly imagine all sorts of unseeable stuff. Just look at the zillions of deities we continue inventing. Since the count of possible neural connections is effectively infinite, just about anything can reside betwixt human ears. But outside existence is a problem. Counting spirits is notoriously tricky. It’s easier to carve a few more. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/69 "2020-01-07T13:32:34Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > … > Back to OP. Did unseeable stuff exist before, during, and/or after an unverified event? Sure. People constantly imagine all sorts of unseeable stuff. Just look at the zillions of deities we continue inventing. Since the count of possible neural connections is effectively infinite, just about anything can reside betwixt human ears. But outside existence is a problem. Counting spirits is notoriously tricky. It’s easier to carve a few more. This is a pretty useless post. The OP is clearly asking, according to Christianity, did grace and the Holy Spirit exist before Jesus. Treat it as fiction if you want, and answer within the canon of that universe. What you did was akin to: Q: How come Luke couldn’t tell that Vader was his father by searching his feelings? You: It’s just a movie and there’s no such thing as the Force. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2020, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374/70 "2020-01-07T20:57:43Z")
For omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient beings, there is no concept of time. There is no before and no after. There just is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-grace-and-the-holy-spirit-exist-before-the-birth-of-jesus/845374.md?page=3)