# Did Hilary make a serious tactical mistake? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 12, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933 "2016-01-12T15:58:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/21 "2016-01-13T04:26:57Z")
This is just the break the McCain campaign has been waiting for. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/22 "2016-01-13T07:49:07Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Hillary _is_ a serious tactical mistake. I almost always vote Democrat, but there’s no way I will vote for her if she gets the nomination. Why? Her positions on the issues are basically those of a generic Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/23 "2016-01-13T08:23:38Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Well, Hilary can now kiss goodbye to the support of the far right-wing xenophobic folks who hate immigrants and listen to Limbaugh and get all their info from Fox News. > > And she was really counting on their support to get her nominated as a candidate. Those kind of folks really are such an important part of the Democratic Party nomination process. > > What on earth was she thinking to alienate such a base of support? Will labor always vote left if they are undercut by under the table competition? Might be exploitable by a populist to siphon off some union members. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/24 "2016-01-13T10:21:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Will labor always vote left if they are undercut by under the table competition? Might be exploitable by a populist to siphon off some union members. Which “populist”? The other Democratic candidates are on the same side here. Will one of your guys suddenly begin pretending to care about labor? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/25 "2016-01-13T11:43:29Z")
Immigration raids are like China policy or NAFTA: how the adult in the White House actually has to govern makes people uncomfortable. What the rambunctious children wanting to get into the White House say about those issues is more comforting to the electorate, but we all know that once in the White House they will implement the adult policy. One can be liberal on immigration policy, but once you decide that people can just ignore deportation orders, then rule of law has broken down. No President can abide that. The problem for Clinton isn’t her stance, it’s the obvious lying. She did it on trade. We all know she supports TPP and will implement it once in office. She’s doing it now on immigration. While she is liberal on immigration, immigrants under deportation orders will not be allowed to remain and she said herself months ago that the immigrants in question here needed to be sent home to avoid a flood of Central Americans on our borders. So now all that’s left is for her to start lying about her position on China and she’ll have the trifecta. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/26 "2016-01-13T11:45:38Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Will labor always vote left if they are undercut by under the table competition? Might be exploitable by a populist to siphon off some union members. We’ve already accomplished as much as we can in that regard. That’s why the REpublicans win the white working class vote. The unions don’t care, members are members. Fire a million Americans, replace them with a million immigrants, no skin off the union’s back. So union donations will always go to Democrats. But the working class is another matter entirely and the REpublicans have been doing well among white working class voters for quite some time in part because of issues like this. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/27 "2016-01-13T12:51:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We’ve already accomplished as much as we can in that regard. That’s why the REpublicans win the white working class vote. The unions don’t care, members are members. Fire a million Americans, replace them with a million immigrants, no skin off the union’s back. So union donations will always go to Democrats. But the working class is another matter entirely and the REpublicans have been doing well among white working class voters for quite some time in part because of issues like this. Any particular reason that it’s REpublicans and not Republicans? The reason that Republicans win as much of the white working class vote is appeal to racism. Republicans discovered that if you take the poorest white guy and convince him that he’s better than any black guy, you can get his vote. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/28 "2016-01-13T12:53:32Z")
Okay, the white working class is racist. Or perhaps they see that they are getting pushed aside for cheaper labor. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/29 "2016-01-13T13:10:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Okay, the white working class is racist. Or perhaps they see that they are getting pushed aside for cheaper labor. They’re being misled into blaming the immigrants when the real culprit is employers shipping jobs overseas. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/30 "2016-01-13T13:22:30Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > They’re being misled into blaming the immigrants when the real culprit is employers shipping jobs overseas. But the Republicans aren’t going to piss off their big donors. So, once again, they appeal to xenophobia. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/31 "2016-01-13T15:05:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The problem for Clinton isn’t her stance, it’s the obvious lying. She did it on trade. We all know she supports TPP and will implement it once in office. She’s doing it now on immigration. While she is liberal on immigration, immigrants under deportation orders will not be allowed to remain and she said herself months ago that the immigrants in question here needed to be sent home to avoid a flood of Central Americans on our borders. > > So now all that’s left is for her to start lying about her position on China and she’ll have the trifecta. What it is happening here is that the sources you used did lie to you, once again. Clinton was referring to the unaccompanied kids from Central America. They should be deported “once the parents are identified”, the idea is that families should be kept together and that was referring to the Central Americans coming to the border. This is different from the raids that are taking place that in reality are separating families that were already living for awhile in the USA, families being separated now but for the House Republicans that did not pass the reforms that were accepted in the senate. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/32 "2016-01-13T15:09:12Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > They’re being misled into blaming the immigrants when the real culprit is employers shipping jobs overseas. Shipping a job overseas is exactly the same as hiring an immigrant and firing a native worker to the worker losing his job, as well as his co-workers. I’ll bet a lot of Disney workers became Republicans when Disney said they were replacing most of their IT staff with H-1Bs. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/33 "2016-01-13T15:11:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What it is happening here is that the sources you used did lie to you, once again. > > Clinton was referring to the unaccompanied kids from Central America. They should be deported “once the parents are identified”, the idea is that families should be kept together and that was referring to the Central Americans coming to the border. This is different from the raids that are taking place that in reality are separating families that were already living for awhile in the USA, families being separated now but for the House Republicans that did not pass the reforms that were accepted in the senate. The reforms would not have done anything for Central American immigrants arriving in the last year. Amnesty only applied to immigrants that had been here for years. Also, these raids were launched against immigrants already under deportation order. Not enforcing a deportation order would be like not arresting someone under an arrest warrant. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/34 "2016-01-13T15:12:32Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > But the Republicans aren’t going to piss off their big donors. So, once again, they appeal to xenophobia. And it has to be noted that many moderate Republicans (Bush, Rubio) would be talking about inclusion too, but tanks to Trump the worst angels of their nature are the ones being listened to. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/35 "2016-01-13T15:12:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Shipping a job overseas is exactly the same as hiring an immigrant and firing a native worker to the worker losing his job, as well as his co-workers. > > I’ll bet a lot of Disney workers became Republicans when Disney said they were replacing most of their IT staff with H-1Bs. Not really. Keeping the jobs here means the corporation and its employees pay taxes and contribute to the economy. For every person who loses a job to an immigrant there are likely thousands that lost them to outsourcing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/36 "2016-01-13T15:19:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The reforms would not have done anything for Central American immigrants arriving in the last year. Amnesty only applied to immigrants that had been here for years. Useless reply as you are aware of what is going on. It is clear that the republican propaganda is omitting this bit, and it is not amnesty. > [@adaher](#): > > Also, these raids were launched against immigrants already under deportation order. Not enforcing a deportation order would be like not arresting someone under an arrest warrant. That was the point BTW, a lot of those would not be happening if the Reform was already there. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/37 "2016-01-13T15:22:21Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Not really. Keeping the jobs here means the corporation and its employees pay taxes and contribute to the economy. For every person who loses a job to an immigrant there are likely thousands that lost them to outsourcing. Not as much as a native worker, because a lot of money is sent home, plus of course they are usually cheaper workers. Outsourcing is like port security, something easy to pound away on, much easier than dealing with real issues like native job loss to immigrant labor and border security. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/38 "2016-01-13T15:23:33Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Useless reply as you are aware of what is going on. It is clear that the republican propaganda is omitting this bit, and it is not amnesty. > That was the point BTW, a lot of those would not be happening if the Reform was already there. Yes it would. Immigration reform did not allow tens of thousands of people to just cross the border and be allowed to stay. But if you want to portray Democrats’ immigration reform as pretty much open borders, I won’t stop you. Spread that message far and wide. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/39 "2016-01-13T15:36:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Outsourcing is like port security, something easy to pound away on, much easier than dealing with real issues like native job loss to immigrant labor and border security. Perhaps because outsourcing is an order of magnitude more important than immigrant labor and border security? Newsflash: There aren’t Americans lining up to pick tomatoes or clean hotels. You can either allow some migrant labor or pay 5 bucks for a tomato. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933/40 "2016-01-13T15:42:47Z")
Well, that’s another issue. Americans used to do those jobs, but hoteliers didn’t want to pay for native labor so now immigrants do it. But we’re also seeing immigrants replace American workers in all sectors nowadays. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m actually in favor of a liberal immigration policy, but current immigration policy is liberal despite fairly conservative laws. The government just chooses to ignore the law. For example, H-1Bs are supposed to be paid what native workers get, but the government looks the other way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hilary-make-a-serious-tactical-mistake/742933.md?page=3)