# Did Hitler succeed (re: jews in europe)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107 "2009-11-19T02:39:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107/21 "2009-11-19T22:49:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That being said, life for Jews was definitely easier in Britian than in continental Europe. With the minor exception, I’d suggest, of Holland. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107/22 "2009-11-19T22:57:17Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > And as a followup, does Europe miss the jews, or is there a quiet acceptance/satisfaction that the purge occured and the jews are largely gone? This question has not really been addressed in this thread but it intrigues me. First of all, I would like to emphasize that across Europe, there is a broad acceptance that the Holocaust was a horrible, horrible thing. This does not automatically mean that they miss the Jews - because you can only really miss what you once knew. Most Europeans that are now alive grew up without Jewish people in their lives. Certainly, there are Jewish people in the US or in Israel, but I guess that typically, if you asked people in Europe if they actually _knew_ a Jewish person, most of them would have to say. This of course does not mean there is no anti-semitism, because it is easy to hate what you don’t know or see (maybe even easier) but it does modulate it, and makes it very different from Islamophobia, for instance. The Muslims in Europe are visible and they play a role in society (although you may argue about whether they play that role _as Muslims_, and whether they form a coherent, monolithic block - I would say no on both counts but that is not the issue). So to return to the question of whether there is ‘acceptance/satisfaction’ of the purge, I would say that it’s rather the case that people (myself included) have absolutely no idea of what it is like to have a Jewish minority in a country, what things were like prior to the Holocaust as far has having a Jewish minority in the country. I have never heard someone say something like ‘I wish the Jews were still around because they ran that deli on the Neustrasse/ Nieuwstraat/ Rue something/ Vinohradska ulice’. In that sense, Hitler has been successful - he not only removed the vast majority of the Jews from Europe by killing them and making those he didn’t kill seek refuge elsewhere, but in doing so he also succeeded in that the gentiles who stayed behind forgot about them. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107/23 "2009-11-19T23:34:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > With the minor exception, I’d suggest, of Holland. True enough; and I suppose some other places as well, like Denmark. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107/24 "2009-11-20T00:01:35Z")
You know, at this point in the thread, the “Jewish experience” as described here, is starting to strike me as kind of emo. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > They never had the chance to prove anything through war and they consequently never got the respect that accompanied this . . . Even the Israelis who had military experience, and there were many, got that experience fighting for the British or the Russians. Bit of a disconnect? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107/25 "2009-11-20T00:05:55Z")
They never had the chance to prove anything _as a people._ Individual Jewish soldiers could fight in wars but they were fighting _for_ England, Russia, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107/26 "2009-11-20T00:24:46Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > They never had the chance to prove anything _as a people._ > > Individual Jewish soldiers could fight in wars but they were fighting _for_ England, Russia, etc. I suppose the same could be said of the Catalonians, Corsciscans and Cornish. Look, the Middle Ages were the times “When Life Was Rotten.” I just don’t know about this insistence that for the Jews it was _uniquely_ rotten. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107/27 "2009-11-20T02:38:43Z")
Look, none of this is supposed to come across as a criticism of Zionism. The Jews have had it pretty rough for a couple of thousand years, no question, and certainly giving Israelites a new/old Israel is a very effective way of ensuring there’s one place where bad things won’t happen to Jews (or at least, will happen less often). Personally, I do question whether putting half of world Jewry into an area the size of Wales is a good idea in the nuclear age, but that’s another thread. However, I don’t believe that this sort of suffering is somehow unique to Jews. The Templars, Masons, Anabaptists, Lutherans and pretty much ever other subsection of Christian society could raise similar complaints. The difference, if there is one, is that Jews still exist, and in the form of a relatively small and easy-to-persecute minority. The others died out or got big. Maybe that’s your problem - not enough evangelizing. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107/28 "2009-11-20T03:23:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > However, I don’t believe that this sort of suffering is somehow unique to Jews. The Templars, Masons, Anabaptists, Lutherans and pretty much ever other subsection of Christian society could raise similar complaints. The difference, if there is one, is that Jews still exist, and in the form of a relatively small and easy-to-persecute minority. The others died out or got big. Right. That’s what makes it unique though. It keeps happening and has continued to happen for centuries. For the others, it happened over the course of decades until, as you said, they got too big to persecute (and sometimes became the persecutors) or they were successfully wiped out. > [@](#): > > Maybe that’s your problem - not enough evangelizing. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107/29 "2009-11-20T14:40:09Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I suppose the same could be said of the Catalonians, Corsciscans and Cornish. > > Look, the Middle Ages were the times “When Life Was Rotten.” I just don’t know about this insistence that for the Jews it was _uniquely_ rotten. As others have noted, the European middle ages had other religious minorities who were persecuted - but most of them died out, so their experiences aren’t as relevant. I’m sure the Cathars would have similar compliants, but there aren’t any. Moreover, other religious minorities were facing “medieval” conditions in the medieval period. In the case of Jews, these conditions tended to recur every once in a while, right up to modern times. An anti-Cathar crusade in the 19th century would be a bizzare anacronism; an anti-Jewish pogrom, not so much - in some places, it happened, culminating in the ultimate one in the 20th century - just an extreme form of a continuing pattern. The reason, I suggest, is cultural. Europe was molded by Christianity. Christainity as a religion got its start in _opposition_ to Judaism. There was a seed sown right at the start for an uneasy relationship - Jews worship the same god and have a certain positive status (Jesus was of course a Jew, the Christians revere the OT which is all about Jews, etc.); OTOH, Jews “rejected” Jesus, Christianity started off in the early years in opposition with and in competition with Judaism, etc. In the Middle Ages until comparatively recently, I believe it was official Catholic doctrine that Jews were _not_ to be wiped out like Cathars, because there had to be some left at the end of time to acknowledge their error. This did not mean that Jews had to be coddled, of course, merely that they should not be killed out of hand. However, such subtlties were often lost on the laity. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107/30 "2009-11-20T17:52:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Personally, I do question whether putting half of world Jewry into an area the size of Wales is a good idea in the nuclear age, but that’s another thread. Wow, it just occured to me that virtually _all_ of world Welshness is in an area the size of Wales! Cachu planciau! Just kidding. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107/31 "2009-11-20T18:01:48Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Wow, it just occured to me that virtually _all_ of world Welshness is in an area the size of Wales! Cachu planciau! Luckily, if the balloon goes up the other centre of Welshness is safely half a world away in [Patagonia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Argentine). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107/32 "2009-11-20T18:03:55Z")
I don’t think 1,500 is a viable breeding population. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107/33 "2009-11-20T18:12:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t think 1,500 is a viable breeding population. Actually, you could rebuild the entire human population from such a group, with the only genetic loss being the inability to honor an agreement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hitler-succeed-re-jews-in-europe/518107.md?page=1)