# Did HIV/AIDS aid or damage the progress of the LGBT rights movement? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439 "2012-11-09T02:15:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/21 "2012-11-10T13:43:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How was this harmful to the gay rights movement? Some people DID make the argument that HIV does not discriminate, which is an inaccurate argument that tries to fix the wrong problem. There are many parallels between the civil rights movement of Black Americans and the civil rights movement of LGBT Americans, and I propose another: Sickle cell anemia is a disease that does discriminate, and it is wrongheaded to suggest that non-Blacks should blame Blacks for getting sick with it, or that God created it as punishment, or that it is OK to ignore it and not try to cure it because it is rare outside of the Black demographic, or that non-Blacks should be afraid of associating with Blacks even though this doesn’t risk transmission, or that the disease is what being Black is about. People are for loving and working with and helping and appreciating. Diseases are for eliminating. And, I guess I must admit, the Black civil rights movement is for emulating and making analogies. Hope nobody minds me jumping onto those coattails - that movement was the leader, is all. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/22 "2012-11-10T14:48:15Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > I think you’re arguing a point that **Annie-Xmas** didn’t make. She didn’t say that “AIDS doesn’t discriminate” or “everyone has an equal risk”. She said that anyone can get it, and that is absolutely true. No, it is not true. Monogamous heterosexuals who do not abuse IV drugs cannot get it. > [@](#): > > And your saying that “it is **not** a disease of everybody” is false - it may be lower in women or men who get it from heterosexual contact, but they still can get it. Just like breast cancer is a disease of [everybody](http://www.cancer.org/cancer/breastcancerinmen/detailedguide/breast-cancer-in-men-key-statistics). The statement that the incidence of men who got HIV from heterosexual intercourse is “lower” is so serious an [understatement](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/895/what-are-the-odds-of-getting-aids-from-ordinary-heterosexual-sex) as to verge on the deceptive. > [@](#): > > It’s true that gay and bisexual men make up the majority of new HIV case (61% of new cases in 2009). But heterosexual contact makes up a not insigificant number of new cases. Even you put “sex partners of either of the above” on your list. > > Currently there are more people who get HIV from heterosexual contact than from injection drug use. Your statement that it’s “primarily gay men and IV drug abusers”, is only true if you lump those separate groups together. Looking up actual statistics from the CDC, the types of transmission (from highest to lowest) are MSM, followed by heterosexual contact, then injection drug use, then (\*much \*less frequently) perinatal transmission to children. > > Based this [CDC site](http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm) under the section _Diagnoses of HIV Infection, by Transmission Category_", the number of new HIV cases in the US in 2010 was 47,129 (including adults and children) I’ve totalled the data according to the categories of your list above. > [ul][li]Men who have sex with men - 28,782 (61%)[/li][li]IV drug abusers - 5,209 (11%) _(I aggregated the category for injection drug use together with MSM who also inject drugs)_[/li][li]The sex partners of either of the above - 12,875 (27%) _(I used the numbers for heterosexual contact_)[/li][li]Children who acquire the infection before birth - 162 (0.34%)[/li][/ul]So there are approximately 2.5 times more people who acquire HIV from heterosexual contact than from injection drug use. And perinatal infection is quite a small number of new cases (if the mother receives proper treatment during pregnancy, the risk of transmission is actually quite low). This is a lot of words that boil down to “what I posted is absolutely correct”. > [@](#): > > Even if you break the number of “heterosexual contact” cases down into men and women and assume all the men are lying and are secretly gay/bi, there were 8,459 cases of heterosexual transmission to women (17.9% of total cases), which is higher than the number of injection drug users (11%). IOW, this statement - > [@](#): > > It is extremely rare for a male to acquire HIV thru heterosexual intercourse. Thus the chain of infection from person to person breaks nearly at once. is completely correct. > [@](#): > > AIDS in America is now, has always been, and probably will remain, a disease primarily of gay men and IV drug abusers. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/23 "2012-11-10T16:24:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > IOW, this statement - > > > [@](#): > > > > It is extremely rare for a male to acquire HIV thru heterosexual intercourse. Thus the chain of infection from person to person breaks nearly at once. > > is completely correct. The Cecil column you linked to says otherwise - I don’t think that’s the best cite you could have used to try to make your point (and it’s from 1988, so it’s probably out of date). > [@Cecil Adams](#): > > A couple points: These odds apply equally to men and women. Although there’s reason to believe male-to-female AIDS transmission happens more often than female-to-male, the amount of difference is unknown. . I found some better data[from the CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/law/transmission.htm). The estimated per act probability of acquiring HIV from an infected source is [ul][li]50/10,000 exposure for receptive anal intercourse [/li][li]6.5/10,000 for insertive anal intercourse [/li][li]10/10,000 for receptive penile-vaginal intercourse[/li][li]5/10,000 for insertive penile-vaginal intercourse[/ul][/li] > [@Shodan](#): > > The statement that the incidence of men who got HIV from heterosexual intercourse is “lower” is so serious an understatement as to verge on the deceptive. Well it looks like it’s ten times lower for a heterosexual man to get it from sex with a woman than from receptive anal intercourse. But the risk for insertive anal intercourse and for insertive penile-vaginal intercourse are very similar. So I don’t think it’s “deceptive” to say that it’s lower for heterosexual men. It’s either 10 times less, or about the same (depending whether the gay man is a top or a bottom). It’s not like it’s 100 or 1,000 times lower. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/24 "2012-11-10T16:30:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it is not true. Monogamous heterosexuals who do not abuse IV drugs cannot get it. Well, for that matter, neither can monogamous homosexuals who don’t abuse IV drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/25 "2012-11-10T18:00:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Monogamous heterosexuals who do not abuse IV drugs cannot get it. Wrong. It’s possible to be monogamous and not abuse IV drugs and still get it. It’s happened. > **[Isaac Asimov FAQ](http://www.asimovonline.com/asimov_FAQ.html#non-literary2)** > > Answers to frequently asked questions about Isaac Asimov and his works While we do have tests nowadays, if the procedures aren’t followed, or if the disease mutates again, well… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/26 "2012-11-10T18:27:39Z")
The following statement is absolutely, unequivocally true, and you will not be able to nitpick it away. \* AIDS in America is now, has always been, and probably will remain, a disease primarily of gay men and IV drug abusers.\* Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/27 "2012-11-10T18:29:39Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Wrong. It’s possible to be monogamous and not abuse IV drugs and still get it. It’s happened. > > [Isaac Asimov FAQ](http://www.asimovonline.com/asimov_FAQ.html#non-literary2) Asimov was not monogamous. [Cite](http://www.asimovreviews.net/NonAsimov/White.html). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/28 "2012-11-10T18:42:36Z")
Asimov had more than one sex partner. But (and I admit that I just skimmed that link) did he have sex with anyone other than Janet once he married her? Or was he monogamous with Janet from 1970 onwards? In any case, he didn’t get HIV from extramarital sex. He got it from a blood transfusion, which is well-documented. He didn’t have sex with other men (that I know of) and he didn’t abuse IV drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/29 "2012-11-10T19:38:56Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Wrong. It’s possible to be monogamous and not abuse IV drugs and still get it. It’s happened. It is even possible to get it by being stabbed by a criminal with an HIV-tainted blood filled syringe. This is very rare, but I know a family who lost someone to this scenario, and I also know somebody who was stabbed in this fashion but did not develop HIV. Rare things do happen. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/30 "2012-11-10T19:47:33Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > Some people DID make the argument that HIV does not discriminate, which is an inaccurate argument that tries to fix the wrong problem. I don’t really see how this post answers my question. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/31 "2012-11-10T20:22:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it is not true. Monogamous heterosexuals who do not abuse IV drugs cannot get it. You included “the sex partners of the above” _in your own list._ ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/32 "2012-11-10T21:11:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it is not true. Monogamous heterosexuals who do not abuse IV drugs cannot get it. > Regards, > Shodan Well I had a young teenager in 1993 as a patient who was a hemophiliac and got it from tainted blood products so your statement is incorrect. I am aware we test blood much better now but there are people who got HIV through no falt of their own. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/33 "2012-11-10T22:48:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The following statement is absolutely, unequivocally true, and you will not be able to nitpick it away. > \* > AIDS in America is now, has always been, and probably will remain, a disease primarily of gay men and IV drug abusers.\* If you’d just said that the most common group to get infected is gay men I’d have absolutely no problem with it. It’s not a nitpick to point out that the only reason your statement is true is because you unnecessarily lump “gay men and IV drug abusers” together. Considered separately, gay men are the largest group of new infections (61%), followed by heterosexual people (27%), and then IV drug users (11%). Even if you only count heterosexual women (19%), there are still more of them getting HIV than there are IV drug users getting it. Why are you lumping the 1st and 3rd most common groups together and ignoring the 2nd most common group? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/34 "2012-11-11T18:07:09Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > Sickle cell anemia is a **disease** Totally, completely, absolutely, 100% not true > [@wikipedia](#): > > Sickle-cell disease (SCD), or sickle-cell anaemia (or anemia, SCA) or drepanocytosis, is an autosomal recessive genetic blood disorder with overdominance ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/35 "2012-11-12T13:43:18Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > Considered separately, gay men are the largest group of new infections (61%), followed by heterosexual people (27%), and then IV drug users (11%). Even if you only count heterosexual women (19%), there are still more of them getting HIV than there are IV drug users getting it. > > Why are you lumping the 1st and 3rd most common groups together and ignoring the 2nd most common group? Because the women who got HIV got it primarily from intercourse with bisexual males or IV drug abusers. You are trying very hard to slice the numbers to make it look like other than what it is - AIDS in America is now, has always been, and probably will remain, a disease primarily of gay men and IV drug abusers. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/36 "2012-11-12T14:59:34Z")
It seems disrespectful and callous to say it, but I feel it accelerated the social acceptance of homosexuality. Reagan (and Nancy) didn’t want to acknowledge the disease until Rock Hudson was publicly strickened. Majority groups can be callous toward minority groups, but seeing them suffer hideously can provoke empathy. It also sparked unprecedented activism in the gay community, which may have been it’s most powerful effect. I don’t think of AIDS as a blessing in disguise, anymore than the Jewish Holocaust was, but I believe it resulted in a quantum leap in understanding and sympathy for the gay community ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/37 "2012-11-12T16:00:29Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Totally, completely, absolutely, 100% not true You probably ought to look up the word disease before you make silly assertions about it. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/38 "2012-11-12T20:40:16Z")
Growing up when AIDS was first known, I’d say it hindered the cause. Society was already gradually becoming more and more open to the idea that being gay wasn’t bad, as part of a wider change in social norms regarding sex - homosexuality was legalised, for example - so it seems unlikely to me that having this association with gay sex and horrible death actually helped matters. > [@Shodan](#): > > Because the women who got HIV got it primarily from intercourse with bisexual males or IV drug abusers. > > You are trying very hard to slice the numbers to make it look like other than what it is - AIDS in America is now, has always been, and probably will remain, a disease primarily of gay men and IV drug abusers. > > Regards, > Shodan Are you assuming all those women were non-monogamous? Actually, I have no idea what your point is. Is anyone disagreeing that gay men make up larger numbers of new HIV cases? What relevance does it have to this thread? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/39 "2012-11-12T20:41:21Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Totally, completely, absolutely, 100% not true Your cite calls it sickle-cell disease. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439/40 "2012-11-12T21:11:56Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Are you assuming all those women were non-monogamous? Actually, I have no idea what your point is. Is anyone disagreeing that gay men make up larger numbers of new HIV cases? What relevance does it have to this thread? It’s a thread about whether AIDS damaged or assisted the cause of LGBT rights in the United States. It’s relevant because AIDS ravaged the gay community while leaving heterosexuals relatively untouched. Heck, the disease was commonly called Gay Related Immune Deficiency until they settled on AIDS. I remember some people referring to it as the gay plague even. I was a child in the 1980s. I remember some pretty hostile feelings towards homosexuals because of AIDS. There was a guy on my street with a bumper sticker depicting two men (stick figures) engaged in sex crossed out with the words “Stop AIDS” written next to them. I don’t know whether AIDS ultimately helped the civil rights movement for LGBT people. I think it’s an interesting question though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-hiv-aids-aid-or-damage-the-progress-of-the-lgbt-rights-movement/640439.md?page=3)