# Did I handle this atheist student correctly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837 "2012-05-23T15:03:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/41 "2012-05-23T18:53:38Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Texas and Minnesota aren’t really comparable however. I grew up in small town MN and evolution was what was taught and nobody raised an issue with it, christian, jewish, athiest, or other. Having scientifically supported views wasn’t liable to out anyone or cause any discrimination, unless they were one who… > > . Yep, which is why we aren’t telling her to temper her outrageous behavior to the extent we would if we lived in Texas ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/42 "2012-05-23T18:57:01Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I think you did good. Head down is good advice for anyone not on the main path in high school, unless you are in a high school culture with a high tolerance for diversity. They exist, but you’d know if your school was one of those places. Head up and proud is a good way to find yourself bleeding. > > However, with head down its a good idea to let the kids who are heads down know they are not alone, you did good there too. Someday, you’ll be “that teacher who took a few minutes to let me know that who I am is ok.”. Thanks. That’s pretty much my best case scenario, but it still disturbs me that I couldn’t, at least not in good conscience, tell him to be ‘out and proud’. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > You gave decent advice to J, but if you never heard of his philosophical beliefs until you allowed a debate on religion and atheism in your classroom then maybe he already understands that he is going to be treated with prejudice and knows when to bring up the topic. He’s held forth on it a few times in class, I’ve refrained from mentioning anything to him before recently. I don’t think that letting him know how the larger world views atheists was the wrong move, I think he needs to understand just what sort of a risk he’s taking by letting people know what his religious beliefs are (or, aren’t). The fact that he hasn’t faced any serious prejudice in Smalltown shouldn’t lull him into a false sense of security. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Discussing what we know of the science of religious belief and atheism may be far more relevant and give the students something to ponder from multiple angles instead of having a debate of one over the other. Well, we don’t really have the time most days and, truthfully, I’d be way too worried about my job to try something like that. Once I can get a critical thinking elective up and running, with parental releases stating that they understand their children will be exposed to differing points of view that they may be offended/upset by… then it’s game on. But before then, I’m still in a bit of CYA mode. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It strikes me that this general attitude is likely to cause him at least as much trouble in life as the specific content of his beliefs. Oh, I’ve been on him about his behavior since the beginning of the year. Speaking to him about this issue, however, was evidently the one topic that actually got through to him all year (in terms of behavior, at least). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/43 "2012-05-23T19:12:11Z")
Chiming in here, I think you did great, and that the course of action you did pursue is far better than the advice you got after the fact. Feeling secure in ones beliefs is different from feeling the need to trumpet those beliefs when they won’t do you any good. It seems that J has trouble with this, and I agree that your advice might help not just in this issue but everywhere. Support from a teacher is very important, and he got it from you. Even here in the godless Bay Area, my atheist daughter had no trouble being friends with religious kids. This stuff just doesn’t come up. I think a lot of religious people just assume that everyone goes to church, and never consider that a friend does not. So, keep it up. I think there are a lot of kids who are going to look back and be very grateful to you in 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/44 "2012-05-23T19:37:54Z")
Thanks much. I was actually struck by the depth and sincerity of his appreciation when he came back later on to thank me. I know that I made a difference for him, I’m just still lamenting the fact that (I think) the best course of action was to tell him to keep his head down. I suppose I’d just really like to see the day when it isn’t even an issue, and a student being an atheist is no more noteworthy than a student wearing corduroy instead of denim. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/45 "2012-05-23T20:32:34Z")
Finn, does your school have an AP Language program? Rather than a critical thinking elective, you might find AP Lang to be a class that fits your needs. It’s a really flexible class: the focus is on non-fiction and rhetoric, so you can read anything, really. The released AP tests ask questions that really do encourage critical thinking–this year they had to write about the value of doubt vs certainty, for example, and one year they had to analyze the satire in an Onion article. I know you are a science teacher, but English certification is easy to pick up. If the class is an AP course, 1) more kids can take it and 2) you have a sort of authority to fall back on: _“That’s on my AP approved syllabus”_. Now, you may already have an AP Language teacher, and she may be blindly teaching an American Lit survey because a lot of AP English teachers just can’t accept that it’s not a Lit course. But if you don’t, it’s something to think about. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/46 "2012-05-23T20:37:00Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Finn, does your school have an AP Language program? Rather than a critical thinking elective, you might find AP Lang to be a class that fits your needs. It’s a really flexible class […] Thanks, I may consider that. I actually just got offered a job in a district I really want to teach in, so I’ll be at a new school come August. I am, however, HQ for both ELAR 8-12 and science composite 8-12 and I plan on adding debate certification for giggles. I’ll check out my new campus and see if they’ve got an AP Language program, but my guess is that they don’t have one set up right now. Also, as an elective I can include science in society, which might be a bit tricky in an APL course. Although, maybe not. I’ll definitely look into the possibility as time goes on, thanks for making me aware of it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/47 "2012-05-23T20:59:03Z")
Quite frankly I am surprised that being an “athiest” or the whole evolution vs bullshit hocus pocus debate is such a big deal. The again, I grew up in Connecticut which is widely regarded as a fairly liberal and educated state. I remember hearing about “intelligent design” and “spontaneous generation” in biology class much in the same context that we heard about how the sun revolved around the flat Earth prior to 1492 in history class. That is to say, it’s what uneducated people used to believe hundreds of years ago prior to the application of real science. Now based on what the OP has said, I think the answer to the question of “did I handle this correctly”, is “it could have been handled better”. The First Amendment reads as follows: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” Now I’m not a Constitutional lawyer or a teacher or anything, but it seems to me that as a public school teacher, you really shouldn’t be getting on any sort of soapbox with respect to religeon or athism. And if you are a private school teacher, I think there is an expectation you tow the company line so to speak (or does one “toe” the line? Like you keep your toes behind it?) Plus the whole “in the closet” thing as if you were trying to come to terms with these weird feelings you have in the men’s locker room is a bit over the top IMHO. How exactly does one “come out” as an athiest? Yes, religious dogma has no place in public school. But declaring yourself an athiest can come across as if you are telling everyone who is religeous that they are morons. You might be correct, but people don’t want to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/48 "2012-05-23T21:17:56Z")
I think that some of the posters in this thread are unaware of what it’s like here in Texas, I felt I could not come out until recently and I have known I was an atheist since 86. I have been told to my face that I have no morals because only God and the Church can supply them, I am in league with the Devil because Atheism is a plot by Satan to tear down the church, my SIL prays for my soul often and let’s me know about it via FB and so forth. I live in the liberal bastion of Houston it is much worse in the smaller places, where I have also lived. If I still lived in the small town where I went to HS I could probably never safely come out for fear that I would be run out of town on a rail or worse, that is of course publicly my close friends would know. I don’t know where Finn lives but there are a lot of places here where an Atheist could get fired from teaching school, because the religious community would raise hell about it(no pun intended). Sure you could sue and win but that is worth only so much. This is a big part of the reason I am moving to California in the fall. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/49 "2012-05-23T21:25:35Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > I think that some of the posters in this thread are unaware of what it’s like here in Texas, . Agreed I don’t have first hand experience. Here in Seattle area, I don’t even know anyone who attends church. > [@](#): > > I have been told to my face that I have no morals because only God and the Church can supply them, I am in league with the Devil because Atheism is a plot by Satan to tear down the church, my SIL prays for my soul often and let’s me know about it via FB and so forth. These sound annoying, but not life threatening. Fuck’em > [@](#): > > I live in the liberal bastion of Houston it is much worse in the smaller places, where I have also lived. If I still lived in the small town where I went to HS I could probably never safely come out for\*\* fear that I would be run out of town on a rail or worse\*\*, that is of course publicly my close friends would know. Really? Literally? That does sound bad. > [@](#): > > I don’t know where Finn lives but there are a lot of places here where an Atheist could get fired from teaching school, because the religious community would raise hell about it(no pun intended). Sure you could sue and win but that is worth only so much. This is a big part of the reason I am moving to California in the fall If it half as bad as you indicate, I’d move too. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/50 "2012-05-23T21:38:39Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Now I’m not a Constitutional lawyer or a teacher or anything, but it seems to me that as a public school teacher, you really shouldn’t be getting on any sort of soapbox with respect to religeon or athism. Where did I say I did that? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/51 "2012-05-23T22:02:45Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Quite frankly I am surprised that being an “athiest” or the whole evolution vs bullshit hocus pocus debate is such a big deal. The again, I grew up in Connecticut which is widely regarded as a fairly liberal and educated state. > > I remember hearing about “intelligent design” and “spontaneous generation” in biology class much in the same context that we heard about how the sun revolved around the flat Earth prior to 1492 in history class. That is to say, it’s what uneducated people used to believe hundreds of years ago prior to the application of real science. Try [2005-2005](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District). “Intelligent design” is in fact a relatively recent repackaging of creationism. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/52 "2012-05-24T05:27:26Z")
You seem to have handled it OK but be careful as his parents may not share his views and that will bit you on the bum! But wow just wow I still struggle to understand the USA when it comes to these matters. Down under it is not even an issue. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/53 "2012-05-24T05:48:56Z")
To the original question, you could give him some more general advice on tact and picking your battles. He’ll probably figure out how to present a case against intelligent design as he matures, but dealing with people escapes many even into adulthood. Or maybe it’s just me that still has difficulty with it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/54 "2012-05-24T12:08:03Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > To the original question, you could give him some more general advice on tact and picking your battles. Already been done. This is more to make him aware that in the wider world, he won’t necessarily be regarded with mere casual disdain from his peers if he expounds upon how we have no souls, or what have you. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/55 "2012-05-24T12:14:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Where did I say I did that? Maybe soapbox is too strong a word, but calling J. aside, giving him your “we athiests have to stick together” speech along with some recommended reading material could be construed as overstepping your bounds. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/56 "2012-05-24T12:21:22Z")
I didn’t tell him that anybody needs to stick together, I made him aware of societal prejudice against atheists. And giving a student science reading material is well within my bounds. Again, it’s _The Selfish Gene_, probably the best and most accessible genetics book written for a lay audience ever, not _The God Delusion._ ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/57 "2012-05-24T20:27:46Z")
I may have over blown yesterday, I had just gotten another prayer bomb from the SIL, I don’t live in some reasonless theocracy, but a place where christian faith is a given and any other belief system is an outlier, so I tend to edit myself. That said if a local preacher got on his high horse and started a campaign to teach intelligent design in science class, then found out the teacher is an Atheist, that teacher is on very thin ice so to speak, especially in a small rural school district. Where I live is very diverse and wonderful in many ways, heck our mayor is openly a lesbian, but there are at least five churches that I can walk to in less than five minutes. The hateful stuff has mostly but not exclusively from relatives as Southerners tend to be polite. Finn good job IMHO ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/58 "2012-05-24T20:56:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > As is, “I believe you’re right but I can’t say so in front of the class” makes you something of a punk ass bitch, if you don’t mind me saying so. Hm. His options were to support the atheist position in class and lose his job, support the student in private and add useful advice, or ignore the entire situation. Finn, I’ve taught at a very religious college. You have to watch yourself. Good job overall. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/59 "2012-05-24T22:42:33Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > Where I live is very diverse and wonderful in many ways, heck our mayor is openly a lesbian, but there are at least five churches that I can walk to in less than five minutes. The number of churches within walking distance is not a measure of intolerance. Whether the churches are Unitarian, Episcopalian and pinko-Presbyterian or Baptist, strict Baptist and way strict Baptist is quite significant. The town I lived in when I was in NJ was loaded with churches, but anyone trying to even broach the subject of teaching ID in the schools would have been a social pariah in no time. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837/60 "2012-05-25T10:17:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Already been done. This is more to make him aware that in the wider world, he won’t necessarily be regarded with mere casual disdain from his peers if he expounds upon how we have no souls, or what have you. And that’s precisely where you step beyond your purview. He is free to express his religion or lack thereof however he sees fit, and you, as a state employee, should not be telling him what to do. I know you dismissed **Saint Cad** ’s advice, but I think his number four is spot on. Presenting the information would be perfectly fine, but you should have let him make the decision of what to do with it. What you are doing now seems to be closer to telling him how to be an atheist, and I don’t think that’s kosher. That said, you are an oppressed minority, so I have to give you a bit of slack with this. You did say that it seems to have been the one thing that finally got through to him, and I’m all for breaking the rules to accomplish that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-handle-this-atheist-student-correctly/622837.md?page=4)