# DId I ruin my daughter's life (again)? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 20, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022 "2008-05-20T21:39:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/41 "2008-05-21T17:43:24Z")
[QUOTE=Spezza] wow. I’m pretty sure that in Canada, no foreign language courses are required for acceptance into post-secondary education. (Quebec school’s could be an exception.) The opposite, in fact, occurs at the University of Waterloo. There, students, even Ontario high school graduates, must pass an ESL test before they are fully accepted. To my knowledge, admittedly only speaking about Ontario schools, foreign language requirements only come into play when you start looking into graduate programs. (Any Canadians here ever hear of undergraduate schools having a foreign language requirement for acceptance?) [/QUOTE] I don’t know of any such requirement at either of the Saskatchewan universities. There’s a language requirement for your degree, but English courses fulfill it. **eleanorigby** , each province in Canada manages its own education requirements. In my particular province, there were mandatory French classes into the mid-1990s in elementary schools, but the program was cancelled. I’m assuming it was a funding issue, there are a lot of rural schools here and resources stretched thin. There were always French immersion schools you could go to though, but all classes were in Frnech. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/42 "2008-05-21T18:00:21Z")
[QUOTE=Procrustus] I emailed him that question today, and he said she doesn’t need it to graduate. But “almost all four year colleges require it.” I don’t know if “most” is true. But he did suggest ASL as an alternative, which I like. My family just doesn’t learn language well, but I’d hate to have to explain that to some admissions officer. [/QUOTE] From my experience, ASL is much harder than Spanish (or I would guess the other Romance or Germanic languages). I’ve liked the classes I took and am planning on taking more - but the structure and grammar is very, very, very different than English. That makes it hard to take the language that you know and apply it to the language that you’re learning. (or see **Nava** ’s post. Can’t do that in ASL.) ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/43 "2008-05-21T18:07:41Z")
[QUOTE=Procrustus] Damn, that’s my problem. I’ve cursed her with my “question authority” streak. [/QUOTE] FWIW, my wife had “question authority” parents who did the same thing with her high school education, always telling her she could “work it out” and “they will always look on your intangibles to help”. As a result she skipped most of the “college track” credits in school. The _only_ college she could get accepted into lacking so many prerequisites (credits in language, math, science, etc) was a private liberal arts school that _still_ made her retake tons of extra classes to graduate because they still had to meet state accredidation requirements. ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Machine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Ice\_Machine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Machine)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/44 "2008-05-21T18:08:40Z")
[QUOTE=Spezza] wow. I’m pretty sure that in Canada, no foreign language courses are required for acceptance into post-secondary education. (Quebec school’s could be an exception.) The opposite, in fact, occurs at the University of Waterloo. There, students, even Ontario high school graduates, must pass an ESL test before they are fully accepted. To my knowledge, admittedly only speaking about Ontario schools, foreign language requirements only come into play when you start looking into graduate programs. (Any Canadians here ever hear of undergraduate schools having a foreign language requirement for acceptance?) [/QUOTE] I also went to UW and it had the English requirement not a foregin language one. However, as others note French, was compulsory prior to University for me in Ontario (I had 4 years, 6 through 9) so I think this is why it’s not required in University, they assume you have some. Ottawa as noted actually has more of bilingual requirement. I think you need to be functionally literate in the other language (either English or French). Besides the fact that Waterloo was my first choice this also kept me away from Ottawa. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/45 "2008-05-21T20:01:34Z")
Heaven knows it was quite awhile ago, but I was allowed to test out of my foreign language requirement. I spoke a couple rather obscure languages from the Western Pacific and they let me test out in those. The languages were sufficently obscure that the biggest problem was coming up with some one else who spoke the language. ---
**Author:** ![sugar\_and\_spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@sugar\_and\_spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugar_and_spice)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/46 "2008-05-21T20:23:31Z")
How long did she take foreign languages in grade school? She may have learned and retained more than you think. I had 2 (or maybe it was 3) years of German in junior high, it was a pretty fluffy class but I still remember some vocab and grammar 20 years later. Unless she’s actively opposed to that particular language you might want to revisit it. Even if she starts over from Level I it will give her a leg up if she enrolls in a summer course. Every private high school I considered in 8th grade required a foreign language for graduation. These were all schools that considered themselves to be college prep, so, well, there ya go, make of it what you will. ---
**Author:** ![Barrels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@Barrels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrels)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/47 "2008-05-21T22:26:51Z")
[QUOTE=Procrustus] I emailed him that question today, and he said she doesn’t need it to graduate. But “almost all four year colleges require it.” I don’t know if “most” is true. But he did suggest ASL as an alternative, which I like. My family just doesn’t learn language well, but I’d hate to have to explain that to some admissions officer. [/QUOTE] I was not a “language” person. But in HS I took ASL for all 4 years. I loved it and picked it up with out breaking a sweat. I even started college intending to become an interpreter. While I did not end up on that career path I still use my skills often enough to not forget. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/48 "2008-05-22T01:52:51Z")
[QUOTE=Ice Machine] I also went to UW and it had the English requirement not a foregin language one. However, as others note French, was compulsory prior to University for me in Ontario (I had 4 years, 6 through 9) so I think this is why it’s not required in University, they assume you have some. Ottawa as noted actually has more of bilingual requirement. I think you need to be functionally literate in the other language (either English or French). Besides the fact that Waterloo was my first choice this also kept me away from Ottawa. [/QUOTE] Does being able to read the ingredients on the back of the cereal box in French count as functional literacy? In other words, welcome to Saskatchewan’s idea of bilingualism! ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/49 "2009-03-21T22:23:22Z")
Update and congratulations to the little one. She got into her first choice school, a private liberals arts college with a very good reputation. They never mentioned her lack of language classes, and apparently don’t have a requirement that she take a language while there. So, for this one at least, it all ends well. (However, I’m going to encourage her little sister to take two years of high school Spanish…) ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/50 "2009-03-21T22:43:11Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > (Why the heck would an American learn French rather than Spanish? Who the heck speaks French? Why? Never mind, I am just ranting.) For me it was because the French students got an field trip to Quebec; the Spanish students went to NYC. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/51 "2009-03-21T23:04:19Z")
Take Spanish, Arabic or Chinese. Those are going to be where the jobs are in the coming years. I took Russian at University and French in HS, but wanted to take Arabic in both (not offered). Now I am teaching myself Arabic. FWIW I thought Russian was far easier than French. French has so many irregular verbs, whereas Russian has only 4 IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/52 "2009-03-22T01:01:04Z")
Just want to say. I did not take any foreign language in school. After high school, I went to a 2 year community college. Then I transferred to Penn State. Never took a foreign language, and I was never asked about it. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/53 "2009-03-22T01:14:47Z")
I just checked the admission requirements for the state school I gardauted from, the state school my son graduated from, the lamest 4-year public college in my state, the private school my other son is currently attending, and the private school my daughter graduated from. All three state schools have a foreign language requirement for admission. Even the lousy one requires at least one year. The other two require two years. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/54 "2009-03-22T12:15:53Z")
So is the language requirement academic, or is speaking a second language the requirement? She might be better off to take a summer in (for example) Québec in a community where English is shrinkingly rare, living with a Francophone family and absorbing all the French she can. Even if the requirement is academic, the immersion makes the academic language acquisition easier. The dad of a young daughter in me hesitates to point this out, but getting a boyfriend in the target language makes the whole process much easier and quicker. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/55 "2009-03-22T12:54:37Z")
> [@lizardling](#): > > Yup. Listen to **smiling bandit**. > > \*“Well-rounded” \* is a term that you should keep at the very foremost of your brain when considering how to aim your daughter’s school career. I would think that at the front of your mind should be **getting your kid to take charge of the process.** ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/56 "2009-03-22T22:31:39Z")
> [@Barrels](#): > > I was not a “language” person. But in HS I took ASL for all 4 years. I loved it and picked it up with out breaking a sweat. I even started college intending to become an interpreter. While I did not end up on that career path I still use my skills often enough to not forget. i popped in to suggest american sign language. some schools do count american sign language as a foreign or second language. i took it in college as a language requirement. perhaps there is a summer course or program that she could go? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/57 "2009-03-22T23:37:04Z")
When I was in high school in the '90s we were told we didn’t need a foreign language to graduate from HS, but that we would very likely need it to get in to college. I was living in Wisconsin at the time, and the University of Wisconsin requires that freshman applicants have two years of the same foreign language. (This [PDF from 2007](http://www.admissions.wisc.edu/hsnews/hsnewsfall07.pdf) discusses the requirement on page 3.) So this is a requirement even at some state schools. The language requirement once you’re IN college is even more important. Having at least a year before she graduates HS will make it easier for your daughter to meet her college’s language requirements. Even if she has to start in a 100-level language class it won’t be as hard as coming in and having to meet the college’s requirements with no foreign language background at all. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/58 "2009-03-23T00:17:58Z")
> [@Spezza](#): > > wow. I’m pretty sure that in Canada, no foreign language courses are required for acceptance into post-secondary education. (Quebec school’s could be an exception.) Québec universities do not require you to have taken foreign language courses in order to be accepted. You do, however, have to show proficiency in the language of instruction of the university you plan on attending, and there are a couple of ways you can do that. Going to one of the three English universities (McGill, Concordia, Bishop’s), you are considered proficient in English if you did your primary and secondary schooling in English, or your Cégep in English, or some number of years in those systems in English. If the school isn’t certain as to your level of proficiency, they have you pass the TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language) exam, and may or may not require you to take a no or low credit English class at the university. Likewise, French proficiency is required at the French-language universities, but I’m not sure of their exact requirements. Clearly having done your primary/secondary/cégep in French, or some minimum number of years in that system is enough, and there is a test similar to the TOEFL whose name I forget. In all universities in Québec, exams and essays can be written in your prefered language (eg submitting an essay written in French at McGill) but that needs to be cleared ahead of time with the university. My experience in Ontario is the same; proficiency in language of instruction, but no actual requirements in terms of courses completed during your pre-university education. > [@eleanorigby](#): > > ETA: I thought all Canadians had to take French in grammar school(?) As I know it, in Québec, if you go to schools within the English-language school system, you will be taking an hour of French a day starting in Grade 1 straight on through until Grade 11 (my school had an exveption for Grade 8, where it was only 4/6 days, but that was a weird scheduling thing, I think), and you need to take 2 semesters in Cégep. To graduate High School, you needed to have passed Grade 10 English and Grade 11 French. To graduate Cégep, you had to pass your courses, of course, and an English-language proficiency test. I’m less certain about the French system; I think currently, English is taught as of grade 1, but it is not every day, and I think it’s required through to the end of high school (grade 11, btw) but again, not every day. I would think graduation requirements are similar: Grade 10 French and Grade 11 English, but I don’t know. Cégep is the same, with a French-language proficiency test to graduate. In Ontario, last I heard, there was mandatory French as of grade 4, becoming optional in or after grade 9 (high school ends at grade 12 in Ontario). In both provinces, there are also immersion programs, which are clearly different! (BTW: Cégep is a post-secondary-pre-university 2 year general diploma in a broad field such as “Science”. “Social Science”. “Liberal Arts” etc. Think first-year general education requirements in university. Mandatory in Québec to go to university after). ---
**Author:** ![volcano\_snail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c89c15/32.png) [@volcano\_snail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/volcano_snail)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/59 "2009-03-23T02:00:53Z")
I don’t have time to read everyone’s response to ensure I’m not repeating someone, but adding what I know about the situation… As I know has been said, there are a lot of schools with a foriegn language requirement, but not all. We (meaning the school I currently attend, SIUC) only have a requirement for two years of electives which could also be some form of art or music. So I suppose you can send her hear if all else fails, we’ll take her 🙂 Of course, that could be farther than she wants to travel depending on where you are. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022/60 "2009-03-23T21:00:50Z")
> [@Spezza](#): > > (Any Canadians here ever hear of undergraduate schools having a foreign language requirement for acceptance?) I don’t recall it being a requirement for my undergrad, however, it there was a “second language” requirement for me to fulfill all the requirements in order to complete _high school_. I remember this specifically because my parents got in a huge debate with the vice-principal (who was a bit of an ass\*). My father is American, my mom is French Canadian. The vice-principal decided that taking French didn’t count as a _second_ language for me or my sister, even though we mostly grew up in the U.S. We had to take two terms of German classes. So while there was no language requirement to be accepted into my undergrad program (that I recall) I couldn’t go to university without having completed high school, and I couldn’t complete high school without two terms of studying a second language. Kind of worked out the same. \*This vice-principal really pissed off a lot of people. The school was the only one in town that offered classes for francophone students, but NO school offered the full course load. So francophone students could take science, history, geography, and French (as a first-language), but math, phys-ed, music etc. would still be in English (which meant that the francophone students all had to be fluent in English as well). He decided that francophone students taking French (first language French) wouldn’t count as a “second language”, okay that’s fair, but that francophone students taking _English_ classes _also_ didn’t count as a “second language” because the English classes were designed for native English speakers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-i-ruin-my-daughters-life-again/450022.md?page=4)