# Did Japan ever fight Russia prior to their 1941 non-aggression pact? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 5, 2020, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095 "2020-06-05T13:04:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/1 "2020-06-05T13:04:26Z")
Hi Did Japan ever fight Russia prior to their 1941 non-aggression pact? I haven’t read of any during WWII prior to their 1941 non-aggression pact/neutrality pact. But I may have missed something. I look forward to your feedback. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/2 "2020-06-05T13:10:03Z")
Theodore Roosevelt famously brokered the treaty that ended the Russo-Japanese War of 1904 ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/3 "2020-06-05T13:17:23Z")
> **[The Forgotten Soviet-Japanese War of 1939](https://thediplomat.com/2012/08/the-forgotten-soviet-japanese-war-of-1939/)** > > From May to September 1939, the USSR and Japan fought an undeclared war involving over 100,000 troops. It may have altered world history. They fought a large series of battles in Manchuria in 1939. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/4 "2020-06-05T13:17:50Z")
I’m not sure if you want to go that far back, but there was the Russo-Japanese War at the beginning of the 20th century. [Russo-Japanese War - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War) Russia and Japan continued to be adversaries after the war, each seeking to influence events in eastern Asia, and undermine the other’s position. Japan fared better at this as Russia was going through quite a disruptive time in the decades following the war. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/5 "2020-06-05T13:18:35Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > Hi > Did Japan ever fight Russia prior to their 1941 non-aggression pact? I haven’t read of any during WWII prior to their 1941 non-aggression pact/neutrality pact. But I may have missed something. I look forward to your feedback. Japan humiliated Russia by defeating their fleet in one of the most important naval battles in the 20th century: [Battle of Tsushima - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tsushima) It was a major shock to Europe to have a European nation trounced by a non-European one - and it probably led to the Russian Revolution ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/6 "2020-06-05T13:20:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Theodore Roosevelt famously brokered the treaty that ended the Russo-Japanese War of 1904 Sorry, I thought I had amended my post to ask about the WWII period, not prior to WWI. I did discover that they did fight each other at the Battle of Nomonhan in 1939 and eventually defeated the Japanese. > **[Russo-Japanese Clash at the Battle of Nomonhan](https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/russo-japanese-clash-at-the-battle-of-nomonhan/)** > > An obscure footnote to World War II, the Battle of Nomonhan in Siberia was a precursor to the major fighting around the globe. During the incident, the Japanese had suffered casualties equaling 73 percent of their forces engaged. In the Russo-Japanese conflict the casualties had been no more than 20 percent. Something was wrong, but Tokyo and the Kwangtung were eager to hide the true facts from the people and each other. During the brutal years to come, the ordinary Japanese soldier would again and again throw away his life in wasted night attacks against an enemy possessing vastly superior firepower. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/7 "2020-06-05T16:18:39Z")
Battle of Lake Khasan in 1938 > **[Battle of Lake Khasan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan)** > > Soviets reoccupy Changkufeng after the Japanese withdrawal following a peaceful diplomatic settlement. >  Japan > The Battle of Lake Khasan (29 July – 11 August 1938), also known as the Changkufeng Incident (Russian: Хасанские бои, Chinese and Japanese: 張鼓峰事件; Chinese pinyin: Zhānggǔfēng Shìjiàn; Japanese romaji: Chōkohō Jiken) in China and Japan, was an attempted military incursion by Manchukuo, a Japanese puppet state, into the territory claimed and controlled by the Soviet Union. That incursion ... Battles of Khalkhin Gol in 1939. > **[Battles of Khalkhin Gol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol)** > > Soviet-Mongolian victory >  Japan > 61,860–73,961\[nb 1\]498–550 tanks385–450 armored cars900 aircraft (participated) ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/8 "2020-06-05T16:31:47Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Battle of Lake Khasan in 1938 > > [Battle of Lake Khasan - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan) > > Battles of Khalkhin Gol in 1939. > > [Battles of Khalkhin Gol - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol) Bote that both of those articles contain links to “[Soviet–Japanese border conflicts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_border_conflicts)”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/9 "2020-06-05T18:43:33Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Battle of Lake Khasan in 1938 > > [Battle of Lake Khasan - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan) > > Battles of Khalkhin Gol in 1939. > > [Battles of Khalkhin Gol - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol) Yes, and that last battle maybe changed WW2 history more than any other small thing. See, Zhukov was about to be purged along with all the other officers- he was even called back into Moscow for it. But he ran into the famously incompetent Marshal Voroshilov who was a buddy of Stalin. He liked Zhukov, and rather than that Military genius getting purged, he was sent back to Siberia to counter Japanese aggression. Zhukov took a gamble and rather than piecemeal defense, he thru everything into Khalkhin Gol and beat the Japanese badly. That ended the “Northern Strategy” of the Japanese Army (which means they went South, and that started WW2) and also convinced the Japanese that Russia couldnt be beat- which means they refused Hitlers request to put pressure on the Soviets from behind. It also meant that Zhukov was available to take charge at Stalingrad. Once chance meeting in the halls of the Kremlin changed all of WW2. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/10 "2020-06-05T19:29:45Z")
I know the OP said he wanted to focus on the WWII era conflicts but I feel the Russo-Japanese War led to those. The war had not been as one-sided as it appeared on the surface. The Japanese won virtually all of the battles. But Russia had a much larger pool of manpower and resources. So the situation by late 1905 was that Japan was running out of men and supplies while Russia was still able to continue fighting. This is why both countries were willing to end the war and negotiate a settlement. But a lot of Japanese people didn’t see this logistic reality. They just saw the victories on the battlefield. So why had Japan had to accept a negotiated settlement when they had apparently achieved a complete victory? The belief arose that Japan had been betrayed by other countries that had forced them to accept an unfair treaty because Russia was a western power. This belief would fuel their expansionist policies of the next forty years. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/11 "2020-06-05T19:30:51Z")
Some bits of history as I vaguely (and probably not-totally-reliably) remember learning it: Manchuria was part of China, but coveted by both Imperial Russia and Japan for its strategic value as a potential route for a trans-Siberian railroad. So Russia and Japan fought over a province that didn’t legitimately belong to either of them. The United States was interested in this too. The USA was working on cultivating relations with Japan (in particular trade relations), and thus was sympathetic to Japan’s position and hostile to Russia over the matter. This led to less-than-friendly relations between USA and Imperial Russia, which persisted after the Russian Revolution into Soviet days. This was news to me when I first learned it, that American Russian relations were frosty even _before_ the days of Lenin, Stalin, Communism and the “evil empire”. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/12 "2020-06-05T19:40:01Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Some bits of history as I vaguely (and probably not-totally-reliably) remember learning it: > > Manchuria was part of China, but coveted by both Imperial Russia and Japan for its strategic value as a potential route for a trans-Siberian railroad. So Russia and Japan fought over a province that didn’t legitimately belong to either of them. > > The United States was interested in this too. The USA was working on cultivating relations with Japan (in particular trade relations), and thus was sympathetic to Japan’s position and hostile to Russia over the matter. > > This led to less-than-friendly relations between USA and Imperial Russia, which persisted after the Russian Revolution into Soviet days. This was news to me when I first learned it, that American Russian relations were frosty even _before_ the days of Lenin, Stalin, Communism and the “evil empire”. Manchuria didnt belong to China really. The Manchu conquered China and created the last Chinese Dynasty, The Qing. The overthrow of the Qing created a China that swallowed Manchuria. Manchuria was also rich in minerals. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/13 "2020-06-05T19:45:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It also meant that Zhukov was available to take charge at Stalingrad. Even before that it meant that he was available to take charge of the Battle of Moscow and bring back troops from Siberia for that defense. The numbers weren’t huge (IIRC about 10% of total Soviet forces) but they were well equipped, well trained, veteran troops under the command of a general that had previously led them to victory. They also had experience in harsh climes that made them well prepared for the winter conditions setting in as the German offensive culminated short of the city. Moscow may have been lost in 1941 without the overwhelming Japanese defeat in 1939. The lessons of the battle were also important in guiding Soviet use of mechanized formations. Fire issues with the BT tanks with gasoline engines in the battle guided a switch to diesel engines. That may have helped keep tank numbers higher since more losses could be recovered and repaired if the tank did not catch fire. The lessons also got fed back into the ongoing development of the T-34. The war could have been much different if Gregory Zhukov went to a Siberian gulag instead of to Mongolia to fight the Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/14 "2020-06-06T03:08:26Z")
As an aside, renown Japanese novelist Haruki Murakami’s book the [Wind Up Bird Chronicle](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11275.The_Wind_Up_Bird_Chronicle) included a character that was a veteran of the Momohan battle. Interesting perspective. First I had ever heard of that. BTW, the Japanese and not the Chinese took over Manchuria after the fall of the Qing Dynasty. Basically, the Japanese made both Korea (north and south) and Manchuria colonies. Manchurian cities like Changchun have Japanese Meiji-era government buildings. Much like in Taipei Taiwan. Both are from the same era. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/15 "2020-06-06T03:17:00Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > As an aside, renown Japanese novelist Haruki Murakami’s book the [Wind Up Bird Chronicle](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11275.The_Wind_Up_Bird_Chronicle) included a character that was a veteran of the Momohan battle. Interesting perspective. First I had ever heard of that. > > BTW, the Japanese and not the Chinese took over Manchuria after the fall of the Qing Dynasty. Basically, the Japanese made both Korea (north and south) and Manchuria colonies. Manchurian cities like Changchun have Japanese Meiji-era government buildings. Much like in Taipei Taiwan. Both are from the same era. From 1911-1931 parts of it were under nominal Chinese control but were controlled by the Japanese through Warlords until the Japanese invaded in 1931. > **[History of Manchuria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Manchuria)** > > Manchuria is a region in East Asia. Depending on the definition of its extent, Manchuria can refer either to a region falling entirely within present-day China, or to a larger region today divided between Northeast China and the Russian Far East. To differentiate between the two parts following the latter definition, the Russian part is also known as Outer Manchuria (or Russian Manchuria), while the Chinese part is known as Northeast China. > Manchuria is the homeland of the Manchu people. "Manc... > [@](#): > > From 1911 to 1931 Manchuria was nominally part of the Republic of China. In practice it was controlled by Japan, which worked through local warlords. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/16 "2020-06-06T03:55:45Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > This led to less-than-friendly relations between USA and Imperial Russia, which persisted after the Russian Revolution into Soviet days. This was news to me when I first learned it, that American Russian relations were frosty even _before_ the days of Lenin, Stalin, Communism and the “evil empire”. Generally speaking, the United States and the Russian Empire had pretty good relations. They had no direct areas of conflict and both of them had issues with Britain so they got along pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/17 "2020-06-06T03:58:28Z")
Yep, I stand corrected. Man, that was an epic brain fart. It was Marshall Zhang Zuolin that controlled much of Manchuria. Then his opium addled son Young Marshall Zhang Xueliang took over upon his death, straightened himself out, and eventually brokered the Xi’an incident. One of the most curious events in modern times. TL:DR, Zhang Xueliang kidnapped his erstwhile commander Chiang Kai-shek (head of the KMT and nominally China), brought in Zhou En-lai (top leader of the communist party), to broker a cease-fire to the Chinese civil war and present a united front to fight the Japanese invaders. The united front lasted about as long as Trumps love affair with Kim Jong-un, and the Young Marshall spent the rest of his life as a prisoner of Chiang Kai-Shek and his heir Chiang Ching-kuo. Chiang Kai-shek dragged the Young Marshall to various prisons and house arrests across China while fleeing the Japanese, and then to China while fleeing the 1949 revolution. Wierd shit you can’t make up. Thanks for reminding me. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/18 "2020-06-08T15:48:15Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > …The war could have been much different if Gregory Zhukov went to a Siberian gulag instead of to Mongolia to fight the Japanese. Nitpick - his first name was Georgy (sometimes rendered “Georgi”): [Georgy Zhukov - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov) > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Generally speaking, the United States and the Russian Empire had pretty good relations. They had no direct areas of conflict and both of them had issues with Britain so they got along pretty well. Yes, even as far back as the American Civil War: [A Royal Welcome For The Russian Navy (June 1960, Volume 11, Issue 4)](https://www.americanheritage.com/royal-welcome-russian-navy) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/19 "2020-06-08T16:05:23Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Nitpick - his first name was Georgy (sometimes rendered “Georgi”): [Georgy Zhukov - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov) > Yes, even as far back as the American Civil War: [A Royal Welcome For The Russian Navy (June 1960, Volume 11, Issue 4)](https://www.americanheritage.com/royal-welcome-russian-navy) John Paul Jone was a Russian Navy Admiral - while remaining a US citizen ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-japan-ever-fight-russia-prior-to-their-1941-non-aggression-pact/855095/20 "2020-06-08T20:23:50Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > John Paul Jone[s] was a Russian Navy Admiral - while remaining a US citizen Yes. The tiny U.S. Navy of the day didn’t have any warships of note for him to command so, with the consent of Congress, he accepted the foreign appointment (and did well, but eventually fell afoul of the backstabby court politics swirling around Catherine the Great).