# Did Jesus actually carry the Cross Itself? and other oddities of that day. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442 "2003-07-14T18:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/41 "2003-07-16T22:57:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wandering Agnostic \* > \*\*Not to throw any more fuel onto the fire, but this Jesus fellow (I use that only because the fact that that was his true name is rather dubious) was pointed out to the Roman authorities after a meeting of the Sanhedrin, supposedly on Friday night. Emergency meeting or not, how is it possible for the Sanhedrin, the ruling body of Jewish teachers (rabbis), to meet DURING the Sabbath? \*\* It’s _not_ possible and that’s not the only problem with the story. The Sanhedrin could only meet during the day, only at the temple, never on the sabbath and _definitely_ not on a holy day like Passover. Matthew has the Sanhedrin meeting at the house of the high priest on Passover night. This would be akin to the US Supreme Court convening at the chief justice’s home on Christmas Eve. The Sanhedrin was also required to wait 24 hours between trial and verdict. Verdict is pronounced on Jesus immediately. Most problematic (IMO) is the fact that the Sanhedrin convicts Jesus of blaphemy when Jesus had said nothing blasphemous under Jewish law. ---
**Author:** ![Wandering\_Agnostic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cc9497/32.png) [@Wandering\_Agnostic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wandering_Agnostic)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/42 "2003-07-16T23:15:53Z")
Not to sound like \*\* Fuel \*\* Diogenes, but isn’t the blasphemy Jesus’ claim that he is the son of Yahweh? I am not, nor have I ever been, a fundamentalist believer in Christianity… but I do think that the statement from Jesus acknowledging that he claimed to be the son of Yahweh is where the blasphemy lies. And thank you for your clarifications to my post. I spent three years in college arguing with my formerly Southern Baptist roommate that the Sanhedrin could not have met, and he refused to believe me, but I didn’t have the information to back up my claim. I do think I used an analogy similar to yours at one point, however. :o) ---
**Author:** ![Wandering\_Agnostic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cc9497/32.png) [@Wandering\_Agnostic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wandering_Agnostic)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/43 "2003-07-16T23:17:18Z")
Errr… wrong smilie. Meant this 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/44 "2003-07-16T23:36:17Z")
Jesus was arrested on Thursday night, according to tradition, and crucified on Friday. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/45 "2003-07-16T23:59:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wandering Agnostic \* > \*\*Not to throw any more fuel onto the fire, but this Jesus fellow (I use that only because the fact that that was his true name is rather dubious) was pointed out to the Roman authorities after a meeting of the Sanhedrin, supposedly on Friday night. Emergency meeting or not, how is it possible for the Sanhedrin, the ruling body of Jewish teachers (rabbis), to meet DURING the Sabbath? \*\* Quite simply, it was an [url=“[http://www.tektonics.org/tekton\_02\_03\_01.html](http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_02_03_01.html)” illegal trial. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/46 "2003-07-17T00:12:25Z")
Not meaning to play devil’s advocate here, but looking on the entire tale of Jesus’ arrest/trial/conviction/crucifixion, it does seem to want to portray this as “innocent victim who undergoes horrible, but heroic, fate”, which lends heaps of a sort of Leslie Nielsenesque “Wrongfully Accused” to this whole matter. Given the fact that the captors of the Jews were not strangers to persecuting them, this does not seem to be out of line with either aspect of that (wanting to portray the Romans as bloodthirsty while simultaneously portraying Jesus as this perfect martyr person). A most interesting thread/read indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/47 "2003-07-17T00:57:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wandering Agnostic \* > \*\*Not to sound like \*\* Fuel \*\* Diogenes, but isn’t the blasphemy Jesus’ claim that he is the son of Yahweh? I am not, nor have I ever been, a fundamentalist believer in Christianity… but I do think that the statement from Jesus acknowledging that he claimed to be the son of Yahweh is where the blasphemy lies. > > And thank you for your clarifications to my post. I spent three years in college arguing with my formerly Southern Baptist roommate that the Sanhedrin could not have met, and he refused to believe me, but I didn’t have the information to back up my claim. I do think I used an analogy similar to yours at one point, however. :o) \*\* I addressed this already in the Biblical errors thread but I’ll say it again. “Son of God” was a figure of speech in Jewish tradition for anyone who was righteous, favored by God, or chosen for a specific purpose. It was not a literal claim to divinity. Neither was it blasphemous to claim to be the Messiah. The Jewish Messiah wasn’t (and isn’t) God. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/48 "2003-07-17T01:39:21Z")
**Diogenes** , given the standard another has been held to in his “was this a miracle?” thread, one might make the argument that you should similarly be held to that standard. However factual you believe your assertion that the Jewish Messiah wasn’t/isn’t God, it remains (however fervently) your belief:) I say this, by the way, as much for anything else as to assure **Fuel** that I and others who are discussing this issue with him in the other thread are not requiring one standard of him and another of anyone else:) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/49 "2003-07-17T02:13:18Z")
**iampunha** , I don’t think you understood what I was saying. The Jewish Messiah is defined as human _by Jewish tradition_, not by me. Regardless of whether the Messiah is _actually_ God, the Jews _believe_ that he won’t be. This is a factual statement of Jewish doctrine, it’s not an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/50 "2003-07-17T03:03:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Jesus was arrested on Thursday night, according to tradition, and crucified on Friday. > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* The synoptic Gospels say that he was arrested on the first day of Passover after the Seder. John says that he was arrested on the day of preparation _before_ the Seder. The Gospels all agree that he was crucified on a friday, the confusion is whether it was before or after the Passover had begun. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/51 "2003-07-17T03:36:51Z")
**Diogenes** , re: Jewish tradition, either I misspoke/misunderstand you or my sphincter muscles are a bit tight from, ah, one or two threads;) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/52 "2003-07-17T03:59:05Z")
No problem, **punha** , I guess I could have phrased myself more clearly (e.g. “According to _jewish tradition_, the Messiah is not God.”) I can see how my flat initial statement could be misread. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/53 "2003-07-17T04:06:29Z")
I think that would have eliminated all misunderstanding:) I had thought, based on my scant knowledge of both you and Judaism, that you were putting forth as fact your opinion. And now back to slightly more important matters, like the color of Caiaphus’ sandals:D ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/54 "2003-07-18T10:13:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Antiquarian \* > \*\*Actually, depictions found in the 1st and second century indicated the beam crux immissa. So we actually knew it was one the beam and not the entire cross, at least for some crucificxions. \*\* Which completely misses the point I was making. Visual representations of crucifixions from the first and second centuries are extraordinarily rare and it is true that the best known of them, the Alexamenos graffiti, does indeed seem to show Jesus being crucified on a crux immissa. But visual representations of Jesus carrying the Cross (or a bit of it) don’t appear until very much later. Which is why it is not in the least surprising that artists then got some of the details wrong. Does one really have to point this out to a trained archaeologist? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/55 "2003-07-18T10:41:41Z")
**APB** , I think it goes a bit further than that. To wit, is it a necessary conclusion that Jesus carried the Cross if he is depicted as doing so? ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/56 "2003-07-18T11:08:35Z")
No, of course not. That’s what makes it so odd that the OP found it puzzling that there is a discrepancy between standard Christian iconography and current archaeological interpretations. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/57 "2003-07-18T11:31:36Z")
I’d even question the term “standard Christian iconography” inasmuch as, for example, the reproduction of images of Christ himself varies depending on the region of origin of the drawing. I have even heard a strong argument, as long as we’re on the subject of the images of Christ, that, rather than being a carpenter, Jesus and his father were rather stone masons. The argument relying upon the sparsity of trees in the area. As I don’t know enough either way, I mention it without implying any validity or lack thereof to either the premise or the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/58 "2003-07-18T11:33:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The synoptic Gospels say that he was arrested on the first day of Passover after the Seder. John says that he was arrested on the day of preparation _before_ the Seder. > > The Gospels all agree that he was crucified on a friday, the confusion is whether it was before or after the Passover had begun. \*\* Well, since Jesus was crucified after the Last Supper, and the Last Supper was Passover, obviously Jesus was crucified after Passover. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/59 "2003-07-18T11:53:45Z")
[Passover](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=passover) lasts a week. Unless the Last Supper lasted 8 days or I am missing something big here, which is very possible since I am ~5 hours past my bedtime here, it did not constitute all of the Passover. Looking back at **Dio** and **Shodan** ’s posts on page 1 of this thread, I do not see any error in my post. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442/60 "2003-07-18T13:39:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > **I’d even question the term “standard Christian iconography” inasmuch as, for example, the reproduction of images of Christ himself varies depending on the region of origin of the drawing.** On the contrary, the specific iconography of Christ carrying the Cross, particularly the form of the cross he is shown carrying, has been strikingly consistent over the centuries. The only significant variation has been that images in the Orthodox tradition have often preferred to show him carrying a ‘Russian’ cross, which **Antiquarian** no doubt feels is as much a shocking archaeological solecism as those images showing him carrying an entire crux immissa. Unsurprisingly, Orthodox artists were just as ignorant as their Western counterparts as to how exactly crucifixions had been carried out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-actually-carry-the-cross-itself-and-other-oddities-of-that-day/188442.md?page=4)