# Did Jesus command us not to defend ourselves? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513 "2007-12-28T20:19:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/21 "2007-12-29T05:18:39Z")
[QUOTE=Klepto21] . . . On a bit of a tangent: This is also the philosophy of many martial arts. Aikido, for example, teaches students to simply redirect attacks and sustain the self. Jujitsu teaches arm locks and other ways to incapacitate one’s opponent. Both of these preach never attacking/hurting your opponent. [/QUOTE] If I remember correctly (and I may not), Morihei Ueshiba called Aikido “the Art of Peace”. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/22 "2007-12-29T05:28:09Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] Simon Peter had a sword in the Garden, and took off a man’s ear. This leads me to believe that the Disciples openly carried weapons while travelling with Jesus. If Jesus really meant for them to submit to any sort of attack, wouldn’t he have told Simon Peter to stop walking around with a sword? [/QUOTE] I don’t think it’s safe to generalize Peter’s action on this particular night to all disciples throughout Jesus’ ministry. Doing so requires multiple assumptions at once (they carried weapons; they carried them openly; Jesus said nothing about them). What we can assert without assuming unknowns is that he said “if someone strikes you, turn the other cheek.” And that he rebuked Peter for offering violence to the man in the garden. The idea that Jesus knew about, and condoned, his disciples going about armed, just isn’t supported by anything in the text, and is contra-indicated by the stuff that \*is \* in there. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/23 "2007-12-29T05:37:12Z")
[QUOTE=Klepto21] Jujitsu teaches arm locks and other ways to incapacitate one’s opponent. [/QUOTE] Exactly. As I explained Jujitsu to a woman whose parents run an Aikido school, Jujitsu teaches the skills you need to place an aggressor in the position where either he stops or he hurts himself. It can be pretty funny, which isn’t a Christlike reaction, I suppose. I’m glad nobody in this thread has brought up that [del]horseshit justification[/del] interpretation about forcing him to strike you with his off hand or open hand. What Jesus meant is right there on papyrus and any other interpretation is as forced as the crap about the Rapture. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/24 "2007-12-29T13:33:02Z")
I think the point to Jesus saying “turn the other cheek” was about what’s going on inside rather than outside. It is about the spirit being more important than physical body. > [@](#): > > Luke 12:4-5 > 4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. > [@](#): > > Luke 12:22-24 > 22Then Jesus said to his disciples: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! He also teaches in the Sermon on the Mount that even being angry is in danger of judgment, although he sure seemed angry at the money changers. I think the point was to teach people to look inward rather than to just follow superficial rules. To change how we saw our fellow man within so to cultivate peace and unity among men. > [@](#): > > Luke 11:34-35 > 34Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are good, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are bad, your body also is full of darkness. 35See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. If we are non violent but still full of anger and resentment we aren’t really growing in spirit. > [@](#): > > Matt 5: > 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Quite a challenge. If you remember the Gandhi movie there’s a scene where he tells his audience that by bearing the blows and not striking back in anger the English will eventually see their own brutality and error. Later in the movie he comments “Why should we hate and punish someone for having the same human frailties we have” {paraphrased} So, non violence is presented as a tool for human growth. There are consequences both physical and spiritual to our thoughts and emotions and the actions they lead to. We are free to act but we must bear the consequences. Can we defend ourselves or others without malice or revenge in our hearts? I think so, but it isn’t easy. Something I’ve wondered about is comparing > [@](#): > > 1 Cor 12. 12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. with > [@](#): > > Matt 5: > 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. In 1 Cor. 12 there’s a longer section on people being part of the same body. I think that was part of JCs message. We’re all part of the same body and if we harbor anger and resentment toward each other we poison the body. “Whatever you do unto others you do unto me” might read “Whatever you do unto others you do to yourself” since we’re part of the same body. However, we would cut off an infected hand rather than let it poison the body wouldn’t we? So, if a psychopath is out to kill me and I know if I don’t stop him he will kill others, am I defending the body by allowing myself to be killed, or by killing him? Am I defending the body if I allow some sicko to rape and kill because Jesus said turn the other cheek? I think the point JC was making was that an eye for an eye is not the path to spiritual growth. We must resist malice, hatred and revenge. We must look deeper within ourselves and try to see and live our connection with others _especially_ when that connection is very hard to see and feel. I don’t think it means we are never allowed to defend ourselves or others. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/25 "2007-12-29T13:39:10Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] However, we would cut off an infected hand rather than let it poison the body wouldn’t we? [/QUOTE] I see no scripture to support this conclusion. Is that your own thought, or something you are ascribing to Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/26 "2007-12-29T14:43:40Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Of course not. But only _defend_ yourself, when you win, don’t give him an extra kick because it feels good. Its not supposed to feel good. [/QUOTE] If only it _didn’t_ feel so good… ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/27 "2007-12-29T14:58:16Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] I see no scripture to support this conclusion. Is that your own thought, or something you are ascribing to Jesus? [/QUOTE] Well, how about the one I just quoted in the previous post? How specific does it have to be? ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/28 "2007-12-29T15:00:32Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] If only it _didn’t_ feel so good… [/QUOTE] Yeah, that’ll teach the bastard to mess with you 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/29 "2007-12-29T15:59:49Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] “Whatever you do unto others you do unto me” might read “Whatever you do unto others you do to yourself” since we’re part of the same body. However, we would cut off an infected hand rather than let it poison the body wouldn’t we? So, if a psychopath is out to kill me and I know if I don’t stop him he will kill others, am I defending the body by allowing myself to be killed, or by killing him? Am I defending the body if I allow some sicko to rape and kill because Jesus said turn the other cheek? [/QUOTE] This seems like a hugely labored interpretation. “If your right eye offend thee, pluck it out” is really a guideline for attacking others, and doesn’t proceed from Jesus’ comments on adultery in Matthew 5:27-28? For that matter, if Jesus teaches that “we’re part of the same body,” how is adultery even possible? What’s the difference between your own spouse and somebody else’s? Was Jesus even talking about adultery, or about something else entirely? It seems like these elaborate interpretations somehow always wind up making the Christian’s life more comfortable. “Turn the other cheek” really means, “it’s okay to fight back under certain circumstances.” “Give away all your money to the poor” doesn’t really apply to all Christians; neither should the camel-and-needle remark be understood as a condemnation of material wealth. Jesus may have walked passively to his own execution, but that doesn’t mean he wanted anyone else to follow his example. All that talk of loving and forgiving your enemies shouldn’t keep you from attacking them-- just do it with love, you know? You’re killing them for their own good. Jesus said so. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/30 "2007-12-29T16:05:36Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] It seems like these elaborate interpretations somehow always wind up making the Christian’s life more comfortable. [/QUOTE] And they really, really hate having that pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/31 "2007-12-29T16:26:27Z")
AND when Jesus had finished teaching, he turned to his disciples and to the crowd, saying, Look, folks: these are just some suggestions to get you started; I want you to think outside the box. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/32 "2007-12-29T16:36:40Z")
I’m still trying to figure out why the cheesemakers are so blessed. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/33 "2007-12-29T16:47:59Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] I’m still trying to figure out why the cheesemakers are so blessed. Stranger [/QUOTE] You don’t know your scriptural exegesis very well; it obviously (from context) applies to \*all \* manufacturers of dairy products. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/34 "2007-12-29T16:54:40Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] Simon Peter had a sword in the Garden, and took off a man’s ear. This leads me to believe that the Disciples openly carried weapons while travelling with Jesus. If Jesus really meant for them to submit to any sort of attack, wouldn’t he have told Simon Peter to stop walking around with a sword? [/QUOTE] Good question. And in a puzzling passage, Jesus actually tells his disciples to carry swords: [QUOTE=Luke 22:35-36, 38] Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. … The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure what’s going on here, although I have heard explanations of this exchange that claim that Jesus was speaking figuratively and the typically obtuse disciples took him literally about having swords. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/35 "2007-12-29T17:01:02Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] Good question. And in a puzzling passage, Jesus actually tells his disciples to carry swords:I’m not sure what’s going on here, although I have heard explanations of this exchange that claim that Jesus was speaking figuratively and the typically obtuse disciples took him literally about having swords. [/QUOTE] I’ve looked it up, and given that this was just before Jesus was arrested, it could be that he wanted them to carry swords just for the look of the thing; either because he thought they might not be arrested or attacked if they looked like they might fight back, or because not carrying swords would be a giveaway that they were followers of Jesus. Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/36 "2007-12-29T17:11:25Z")
Hitler was a Christian who focused on the story of Jesus driving the money lenders from the temple as a warrior spirit of Jesus against Jews. Ghandi had the spirit of Jesus correct. Peaceful demonstrations are an offshoot of it. We always believed non violent demonstrations would eventually show the state was brutal and a backlash would occur. I think much of Christian America enjoyed demonstrators getting beaten. Snake handlers find a couple lines in the bible and make handling vipers a part of their ceremonies. They die . It is stupid. You can read whatever you want into the bible. You can feed your preconceptions. Jesus would not kill someone assaulting his family. It is wrong to do violence to another human being. It is a right you simply do not have. Once you say he would defend his family violently ,you have top ask ,would he defend his village ? Would he defend his country? Then all violence and war is excusable. You do not understand the message if you have to ask. No he would not. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/37 "2007-12-29T17:29:31Z")
[QUOTE=Genghis Bob] You don’t know your scriptural exegesis very well; it obviously (from context) applies to \*all \* manufacturers of dairy products. [/QUOTE] Hmmm…okay, well, why are the Greeks going to inherit the Earth then, Big Nose? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/38 "2007-12-29T17:31:57Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] I’ve looked it up, and given that this was just before Jesus was arrested, it could be that he wanted them to carry swords just for the look of the thing; either because he thought they might not be arrested or attacked if they looked like they might fight back, or because not carrying swords would be a giveaway that they were followers of Jesus. Maybe. [/QUOTE] Seems like it’s a convenient, after-the-fact, addition to make it look like Jesus was prescient. That is, he knew Peter would cut the soldier’s ear off if he had a sword, and Jesus wanted to be able to demonstrate his ability to forgive. IOW, it was a set-up. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/39 "2007-12-29T17:55:03Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Seems like it’s a convenient, after-the-fact, addition to make it look like Jesus was prescient. That is, he knew Peter would cut the soldier’s ear off if he had a sword, and Jesus wanted to be able to demonstrate his ability to forgive. IOW, it was a set-up. [/QUOTE] Yep, a literary device. The author of Luke needed to get a weapon into someone’s hands for the admonition and healing in the garden. It also gave him (the author) a hook for a fulfillment of (OT) scripture reference: “. . . and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” That Luke - now \*there’s \* a writer. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2007, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513/40 "2007-12-29T17:58:30Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] Hmmm…okay, well, why are the Greeks going to inherit the Earth then, Big Nose? Stranger [/QUOTE] Listen, non-violence or no, I’ll thump you if you call me ‘Big Nose’ again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-command-us-not-to-defend-ourselves/431513.md?page=3)