# Did Jesus' death redeem the betrayal of Judas? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375 "2009-01-21T23:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/1 "2009-01-21T23:18:18Z")
In the Bible, Jesus asks God to forgive us, and dies for our sins. Does the betrayal of Judas count among them, or is my understanding of “dying for our sins” flawed? Would he have been forgiven if he hadn’t (as some accounts say) not committed suicide? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/2 "2009-01-21T23:24:45Z")
“Dying for our sins” doesn’t mean our sins are automatically forgiven. There has to be some sort of repentance on the part of the sinner. The account that says Judas killed himself I believe also says he repented for what he did (throwing the money back) but then he messed up again in killing himself. :smack: Whether more chances are given for repentance and making up for sin (e.g., purgatory) after death is of course an open question. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/3 "2009-01-22T00:25:34Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > The account that says Judas killed himself I believe also says he repented for what he did (throwing the money back) but then he messed up again in killing himself. :smack: Well, one part of the Bible says that, the other says otherwise: Matthew 27:5 And he [Judas] cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. Acts 1:18 Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/4 "2009-01-22T00:29:08Z")
Moved to Great Debates. **samclem** Moderator, General Questions ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/5 "2009-01-22T00:51:50Z")
According to many (but certainly not all) Christians, forgiveness of sin depends entirely on whether or not you have accepted Christ as your personal savior. On those terms, Judas’ outward actions are irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/6 "2009-01-22T00:57:36Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > According to many (but certainly not all) Christians, forgiveness of sin depends entirely on whether or not you have accepted Christ as your personal savior. On those terms, Judas’ outward actions are irrelevant. Of course, there are nearly as many different interpretetations of scripture as there are people interpreting it, so the OP will be unlikely to get any sort of a concensus regarding the answer to their question. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/7 "2009-01-22T01:41:15Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > “Dying for our sins” doesn’t mean our sins are automatically forgiven. There has to be some sort of repentance on the part of the sinner. The account that says Judas killed himself I believe also says he repented for what he did (throwing the money back) but then he messed up again in killing himself. :smack: > > Whether more chances are given for repentance and making up for sin (e.g., purgatory) after death is of course an open question. My take on it is yes Jesus did, but at the same time Judas shipwrecked his faith. Some of the strongest language of the Bible goes to the security of salvation: [QUOTE=John 10:] 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand [/QUOTE] So salvation can not be lost, as it is God Himself holding on to us, and scriptures can not be broken. He got re-entangled in this world: [QUOTE=2Peter2] 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. [/QUOTE] He was obvious tormented by his actions and tried to buy his way out, but you can’t buy your way out of sin, out of desperation he took his own life. Deuteronomy has some of the effects of worshiping other gods, which money would be one such god, it includes things that sounds like demonization [QUOTE=Deuteronomy 28:67] In the morning you will say, “If only it were evening!” and in the evening, “If only it were morning!”-because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. [/QUOTE] suicide is not expressly forbidden in scriptures, but the body you have is not your own, but belongs to the Lord, it is really a sin to do something to your body that the Lord did not want you to do, but all sins except one is forgivable, and that one sin can not apply to the believer as it would contradict John 10:28,29 posted above, and again scriptures can not be broken. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/8 "2009-01-22T03:07:51Z")
I think I’m more interested in whether or not Jepitaph forgave god when he offered his daughter for sacrifice in exchange for a successful genocide of the Imminites. (OT) After all, one mysoginist usually bear even more mysoginsts. Since we’re talking of fiction, what’s happening on All My Children? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/9 "2009-01-22T03:22:40Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Since we’re talking of fiction, what’s happening > on All My Children? Actually, the topic is not fiction, (_the narrative of the story if one does not happen to believe it_), but theology–the worldview of various people. I expect the occasional snide comment, but I see no reason to derail the thread because one fails to recognize the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/10 "2009-01-22T03:35:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, the topic is not fiction, (_the narrative of the story if one does not happen to believe it_), but theology–the worldview of various people. > > I expect the occasional snide comment, but I see no reason to derail the thread because one fails to recognize the topic. Tommdeb, you just won me 5 bucks me because I said, “Moderators tomndeb will me the first to reply.” TYVM! I DO get the subject of the OP. As someone already pointed out, the gospels tell a different ending to Judas than does Acts. You all want to know if Judas was forgiven through Jesus’ death? Whatever answer you come up with and believe in is correct. This is not a great debate. It’s the equvallent of askng what Agent Cooper really experienced when he entered the Black Lodge. Whatever you think is correct. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/11 "2009-01-22T04:43:19Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > I think I’m more interested in whether or not Jepitaph forgave god > when he offered his daughter for sacrifice in exchange for > a successful genocide of the Imminites. (OT) After all, one mysoginist > usually bear even more mysoginsts. > > Since we’re talking of fiction, what’s happening > on All My Children? [http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jepthah.html](http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jepthah.html) for a good discussion as to whether a literal sacrifice was demanded or performed. Oh yeah, “Jephthah” and “Ammonites”. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/12 "2009-01-22T04:45:15Z")
To the OP- if Judas truly repented, he may have been restored in the Afterlife. Jesus’ death redeems everything, but people have to accept redemption. It’s possible but not guaranteed that such opportunity may extend after mortal life. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/13 "2009-01-22T04:47:34Z")
Look, I get it that a person who does not believe any of the events narrated actually occurred, (or that that such a being as a god even exists), finds the discussion fruitless and silly. That, however, does not make it less a debate for those who do share a belief in the topic. If the topic fails to interest you, ignore it. On the other hand, watching the debate unfold will at least give you an insight into how some portion of the population thinks. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/14 "2009-01-22T05:50:23Z")
I don’t know what happened to Judas after he died, or even before, but it really isn’t any of my business. The fact is, that’s between him and God and they’ll figure it out. (I’d guess they already have done.) But it isn’t my problem and it isn’t my life and Jesus really doesn’t want me to worry about it. It doesn’t affect what I’m supposed to do. I expect that if I’m supposed to know, I’ll find out when I get there. We can debate this until the cows come home, but that isn’t really the mission we’ve been given. “I tell no one any story but his own.” (Aslan, A Horse and His Boy) “Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.” John 21:22 ---
**Author:** ![abel29a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@abel29a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel29a)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/15 "2009-01-22T10:33:25Z")
Judas “betrayal” was a instrumental part of the whole Jesus on the cross episode, which forms a fundamental aspect of Christian Faith. If so, the betrayal must have been part of Gods master plan - and if so, there was no betrayal and Judas should be swimming in wine somewhere quite close to the Golden Throne upstairs - for no Judas - no Christianity… What’s there to forgive? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/16 "2009-01-22T10:56:13Z")
> [@abel29a](#): > > Judas “betrayal” was a instrumental part of the whole Jesus on the cross episode, which forms a fundamental aspect of Christian Faith. If so, the betrayal must have been part of Gods master plan - and if so, there was no betrayal and Judas should be swimming in wine somewhere quite close to the Golden Throne upstairs - for no Judas - no Christianity… > > What’s there to forgive? Using this logic the entire creation and fall of mankind and the fall of some of the angels were a part of God’s master plan, but this does not negate free will. Satan had a choice to make and he decided to cause the fall of man and, through his principalities, crucify a innocent man (big mistake for his kingdom). It’s not that it is part of the master plan but God’s plan is above our free will and will succeed in spite of it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/17 "2009-01-22T12:26:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Using this logic the entire creation and fall of mankind and the fall of some of the angels were a part of God’s master plan, but this does not negate free will. Satan had a choice to make and he decided to cause the fall of man and, through his principalities, crucify a innocent man (big mistake for his kingdom). It’s not that it is part of the master plan but God’s plan is above our free will and will succeed in spite of it. I thought it was _God’s_ plan to have Jesus crucified, and that was the reason Jesus went along with it. If this was the devil’s plan, why did Jesus go along with it, instead of escaping? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/18 "2009-01-22T13:11:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I thought it was _God’s_ plan to have Jesus crucified, and that was the reason Jesus went along with it. If this was the devil’s plan, why did Jesus go along with it, instead of escaping? **kanicbird** ’s a Witness IIRC - this point of doctrine is a major difference of theirs from either catholic or Orthodox Christianity. To answer **abel29a** , it makes a difference what Judas’s intentions were - and had he had a quiet word with Jesus, along the lines of “I know what must happen for your plan to be fulfilled. I will be the agent of it, if you need me to,” that would have been quite different from what he actually did, and there would indeed be nothing to forgive. But if Judas actually acted for his own purposes, and unwittingly did what needed to be done, that is another thing - and Jesus himself said that there would be woe upon who betrayed the Son of Man, even though it was necessary. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/19 "2009-01-22T13:13:49Z")
I do not recall the exact quote at this moment but there is a quote Of Jesus thanking the father that all were saved except one, so the prophecies could be fullfilled. Another that it would have been better if he had not been born. Jesus was also quoted as saying that he spoke in Parables because if he didn’t some would understand and be saved. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![abel29a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@abel29a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel29a)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/20 "2009-01-22T14:03:13Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > To answer **abel29a** , it makes a difference what Judas’s intentions were - and had he had a quiet word with Jesus, along the lines of “I know what must happen for your plan to be fulfilled. I will be the agent of it, if you need me to,” that would have been quite different from what he actually did, and there would indeed be nothing to forgive. But if Judas actually acted for his own purposes, and unwittingly did what needed to be done, that is another thing - and Jesus himself said that there would be woe upon who betrayed the Son of Man, even though it was necessary. I saw a documentary on National Geographic about the rediscovered Gospel of Judas, in which it was claimed that the former is pretty much what happend - that Judas indeed reluctantly went along with playing the part of traitor in order to oblige the command of Jesus. Altough I’ve later heard bad things about the translation used by the documentary, it still made for a fascinating film. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375.md?page=2)