# Did Jesus' death redeem the betrayal of Judas? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375 "2009-01-21T23:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/41 "2009-02-05T03:58:04Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I fully understand your points. I completely and utterly disagree with your premises and assumptions. > > There is no such thing as “human randomness.” Just choice. God gave it to you, and he’ll persuade you to his side, but he will not force you to do anything. It’s your choice, period, to do anything within your power (which is _considerable_). There’s no predestination, no dominos, no causality. The entire universe is in large part a stage for us to do whatever we want; a nursery or play-room in a manner of speaking. But he universe, Nature if you will, is our sister, and has no authority to command us at all. The question of predestination is tied to the idea of omnipotence combined with omniscience. Assuming a divine being knows everything, past, present and future and every tie of causality from the path of the very first atom to the very last, dying breath of the Universe, and furthermore assuming it has the power to tweak anything (again, from the path of an electron to the heart of Pharaoh), then it must follow that free will is an illusion. He didn’t just create the universe and every electron in it, he did it outside of time, seeing the future results of the creation of each one of them, each atom, each tree, each protozoa, each ray of light let be. To an omniscient, eternal and omnipotent being, there can’t be \*any \*unforeseen consequences. And besides, even within the Christian dogma, while humans canonically were given free will, angels weren’t. So Lucifer certainly didn’t chose pride, or to rebel - he must have been made \*to \*rebel. A cosmic patsy. Frankly, I sympathize with the guy. I hope it’ll count for something when he gets his claws on my black soul 😛 ---
**Author:** ![pjean1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@pjean1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjean1)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/42 "2011-06-25T01:14:11Z")
This is a good thought provoking question. The bible says that “satan entered Judas”, but I don’t believe satan can take over a person without their awareness or allowance of his entrance by our sins. We don’t sin accidently, we have free agency. Judas was culpable. Only the Lord knows if Judas was forgiven because we can’t know what was in his heart fully. It’s not for us to know. We need to be concerned of own Salvation. The merciful God of creation can forgive even when we don’t feel we deserve it. Repentance means" to go another way." That is, to change. If your question of Judas’ forgiveness was to answer the question of your own forgiveness, know that God loves you more than you can possibly imagine. Jesus does not interfere in our life against our will, If you allow him to work in your life, he will bless you. If you allow Satan into your life he will damn you. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/43 "2011-06-25T01:35:56Z")
Holy crap, it’s surreal seeing this thing. I’d forgotten it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/44 "2011-06-25T01:44:06Z")
**Why** did Judas betray Jesus anyway? Just for the money? How much was thirty shekels in those days. I’ve encountered alternate interpretations: In _Jesus Christ Superstar,_ Judas appears to be in complete sincere agreement with the priests that Jesus’ movement has turned into something that will start a revolt and destroy Judaea (as the later revolt did). Also, Judas thinks Jesus himself has betrayed his own movement by turning into a megalomaniac: “Jesus! / You’ve started to believe / The things they say of you / You really do believe / This talk of God is true! / And all the good you’ve done / Will soon be swept away! / You’ve begun to matter more / Than the things you say!” In _The Last Temptation of Christ,_ Jesus **gives Judas the job.** “Could you betray your master?!” “Of course not. That’s why God gave me the easier task – to be crucified.” In Robert Graves’ _King Jesus,_ Judas is entirely and sincerely loyal and obedient to Jesus, but . . . signals got mixed. Crucifixion was **not** actually Jesus’ plan. (His actual plan is . . . gloomier.) But my favorite is [Leon Rosselson’s.](http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/songs/texts/judas.html) > [@](#): > > The Romans were the masters > When Jesus walked the land > In Judea and in Galilee > They ruled with an iron hand > The poor were sick with hunger > And the rich were clothed in splendour > And the rebels, whipped and crucified > Hung rotting as a warning > And Jesus knew the answer - > “Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s” > Said, “Love your enemies” > But Judas was a Zealot and he > Wanted to be free > “Resist”, he said, “the Romans’ tyranny” > > So stand up, stand up for Judas > And the cause that Judas served > It was Jesus who betrayed the poor with his word Anyway. Perspective. Judas ain’t **necessarily** the bad guy in this story. More likely the only good guy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/45 "2011-06-25T19:18:57Z")
> [@pjean1](#): > > This is a good thought provoking question. The bible says that “satan entered Judas”, but I don’t believe satan can take over a person without their awareness or allowance of his entrance by our sins. What’s your take on God repeatedly hardening the Pharaoh’s heart, in EXODUS? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/46 "2011-06-25T20:42:37Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Jesus’ death redeems everything, but people have to accept redemption. [Not everything](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12:31&version=NIV). > [@](#): > > **Matthew 12:31** > > And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/47 "2011-06-25T22:24:00Z")
> [@Estilicon](#): > > Judas betrayed Jesus? > You’d better read this [first](http://southerncrossreview.org/49/borges-judas-eng.htm). > Borges is truly unique. Ah, you beat me. Borges’ depiction of Judas as an unsung saint is a favorite. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/48 "2011-06-26T01:40:56Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Well, one part of the Bible says that, the other says otherwise: > > Matthew 27:5 > And he [Judas] cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. > > Acts 1:18 > Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. The current thought is that these do not contradict each other. Hanging was a process of impaling someone on a pole, hanging off this. It is also claimed to be true in Esther, and why the “gallows” were so high–they were just longer polls. They tapered as they went down, so you would wind up suspended by them. That’s why, even after they were already dead, it made sense to put them on the polls so they could be seen. Now, whether this is accepted in secular thought, I have no idea. That’s **Dio** ’s department. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/49 "2011-06-26T18:41:55Z")
And then there’s [“The Way of Cross and Dragon”.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_of_Cross_and_Dragon) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/50 "2011-06-26T19:38:35Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The current thought is that these do not contradict each other. Hanging was a process of impaling someone on a pole, hanging off this. Cite, please. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of “hanging” defined that way before. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/51 "2011-06-27T00:34:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [Not everything](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12:31&version=NIV). The very next verse brings it back to everything will be forgiven or at least the possiblity after much time has passed: > [@](#): > > 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. The stipulation is not forgiven in this age or the age to come, but what about the one after that? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/52 "2011-06-27T00:38:43Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What’s your take on God repeatedly hardening the Pharaoh’s heart, in EXODUS? Think of it as civil war era slavery. A slave owner may have moments of weakness and compassion to his slaves, thoughts that he should really let them go free. But then pushed that feeling away and hardens his heart towards them and actually may ask God to help him to keep his slaves (as the slave owner believes it’s for the general good of the people). God complies and allows the owner not to feel compassion for the slaves for a little while longer. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/53 "2011-06-27T00:40:00Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The stipulation is not forgiven in this age or the age to come, but what about the one after that? It’s turtles all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/54 "2011-06-27T00:52:52Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Think of it as civil war era slavery. A slave owner may have moments of weakness and compassion to his slaves, thoughts that he should really let them go free. But then pushed that feeling away and hardens his heart towards them and actually may ask God to help him to keep his slaves Just to be clear, though, the Bible only ever shows the opposite cause-and-effect chain, right? It’s always God hardening Pharaoh’s heart without being asked, never Pharaoh first asking for help keeping his heart hard? (And that God, when explaining why he hardened Pharaoh’s heart, of course never mentions the idea you’re on about, but only references completely different stuff?) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/55 "2011-06-27T01:43:58Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > When I was younger, I always thought Judas got a raw deal. I think Jesus and Judas talked it over and Judas had to take one for the team, as it were. > > Or, what \*\*Walker \*\*said. Yeah, the issue of Judas is what broke the camel’s back for me, religion-wise, when I was a kid. It was just blatantly unjust. FTR, the opinion of the RC priest who taught us cathechism at the time was that he probably wasn’t saved since he commited the sin of desesperation. Though he left some wiggle room for suicide, since one could regret (too late) his actions when he’s hanging or is falling to his death. In any case, Judas got a really raw deal, indeed. He’s possibly my favourite character in the Gospels as a result. I liked “The last temptation of Christ” in no little part for its depiction of Judas. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/56 "2011-06-27T10:32:48Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Just to be clear, though, the Bible only ever shows the opposite cause-and-effect chain, right? It’s always God hardening Pharaoh’s heart without being asked, never Pharaoh first asking for help keeping his heart hard? (And that God, when explaining why he hardened Pharaoh’s heart, of course never mentions the idea you’re on about, but only references completely different stuff?) Remember also that God gets blamed in scriptures for what Satan does in 2 Sam24:1 compared to 1 Chron 21:1, which speaks to God’s redemption of even Satan btw. So it very well could be Satan requesting the hardening of the heart of Pharaoh (as we can see such requests of Satan in Job), to preserve his empire of slavery on earth. Satan was given authority on earth to rule (for a time), Satan would have a claim over Pharaoh. In this scenario God has 2 children, his very young child Moses asking God to free the Israelites, and his much older and disobedient but still loved child called Satan. Both asking for opposite things. God uses this opportunity to build Moses up, and to tear Satan’s empire down. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/57 "2011-06-27T10:39:58Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > When I was younger, I always thought Judas got a raw deal. I think Jesus and Judas talked it over and Judas had to take one for the team, as it were. > > Or, what \*\*Walker \*\*said. The Gospel of Judas goes into this. In this one Jesus and Judas do talk it over as you state. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/58 "2011-06-27T12:20:49Z")
According to the scriptures, Jesus knew Judas was going to betray him and he could have prevented it, so Jesus really committed sucide.Christians owe Judas thanks, because with out his betrayal there would be no redemption. I find it difficult to understand why Jesus had to die , when according to Genesis the punishment for sin was death, and people still die! There was no mention of eternal punishment, and why an all knowing loving father would punish all his children through the ages because the first humans now knew the difference between good and evil doesn’t make sense to me! If memory serves me right, there was also a time when Jesus told a woman who came to Him for help, that He came just for the house of Israel.He did help her though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/59 "2011-06-27T12:59:46Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > In this scenario God has 2 children, his very young child Moses asking God to free the Israelites, and his much older and disobedient but still loved child called Satan. Both asking for opposite things. God uses this opportunity to build Moses up, and to tear Satan’s empire down. In _ **that** _ scenario, yes. But, again, I just want a quick spot of clarification: the scenario presented in the _ **Bible** _ only shows God hardening Pharaoh’s heart with no mention of Pharaoh or Satan asking for that, right? Sure as the only reasons actually named by God in EXODUS have nothing to do with the request of a young child or an old child or anyone else at all? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375/60 "2011-06-27T13:08:02Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > According to the scriptures, Jesus knew Judas was going to betray him and he could have prevented it, so Jesus really committed sucide. Jesus allowed people free will even knowing what they would do with it, Judas was no exception. Denying people free will would violate the plan of having people come to God from free will. > [@](#): > > Christians owe Judas thanks, because with out his betrayal there would be no redemption. I find it difficult to understand why Jesus had to die , when according to Genesis the punishment for sin was death, and people still die! We don’t live in life here on earth, but we are already in death. All life here is temporary and all life is in the stages of death one it starts. This is the condition of the original sin, it is also the mercy of God, that even in this death there is still much life remaining. The life refers to the eternal life, that of Adam and Eve before the fall. That is the life that Jesus talks about. The reason Jesus had to die is difficult to understand in our current world. It is best defined as how marriage was intended by God. The two people become one person. This is not the marriage as we commonly know it but something much more wonderful. What happens in this is Jesus sinless dies alone. The Father calls Satan on it and says what charge did you have against Jesus, Satan says none, and the Father then corrects the error and raises Jesus (along with other benefits). Jesus had then paid the penalty for sin though He didn’t own the penalty and is now alive. When from the marriage example, Jesus and a believer become one person, that person, though he has sinned, has already paid penalty, since Jesus has already died and now Jesus and that person are the same. > [@](#): > > There was no mention of eternal punishment, and why an all knowing loving father would punish all his children through the ages because the first humans now knew the difference between good and evil doesn’t make sense to me! There is a case for a eternal fire, but IMHO not eternal punishment. God is Love, and God desires all to be saved, And there is no plan of God that can be overcome. So how can anyone be lost eternally? If there was God would be in eternal grief over the loss of one if His children. To put in another way, Jesus can raise people from the dead, and has given that power to anyone who believes, so how can anyone be eternally lost? > [@](#): > > If memory serves me right, there was also a time when Jesus told a woman who came to Him for help, that He came just for the house of Israel.He did help her though. Jesus as a man did not know everything, this is quite clear in scriptures (He didn’t know who touched Him when the woman was cured, and didn’t know the day or hour of His return, but the Father knew), Also it is reasonable that Jesus had to find out the extent of His ministry as He was doing it, learning as He was working. This is inline with scriptures, we are asked to learn as we go, Jesus would have a unfair advantage if He knew everything and we don’t, which would require more on us then on Jesus (and that violates scriptures). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-death-redeem-the-betrayal-of-judas/482375.md?page=4)