# Did Jesus really exist? And what's with the Shroud of Turin? November 22, 1985 is incorrect because
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620
**Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
**Created:** [October 30, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620 "2013-10-30T03:14:45Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@stardustwind54](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stardustwind54)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/1 "2013-10-30T03:14:45Z")
the shroud of turin was re-tested in 2013 and it turns out that in 1988 the area carbon dated was a re-woven patch done by Poor Clair Nuns approx. 700 years ago. In 2013 the main part of the shroud was tested and it was determined to be in the correct date range to actually be the shroud that covered Jesus Christ’s body. Also, pollens from Jerusalem were found in it and dust from the feet indicated that it was in a cave near Jerusalem.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2013, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/2 "2013-10-30T06:23:59Z")
Welcome to The Straight Dope! By the way, it is customary to add a link to the column you are referring to so that people can follow along, [like so.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/518/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin) Could you please tell us who tested the Shroud of Turin in 2013 and determined that dates back to the time of Jesus?
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/3 "2013-10-30T15:38:14Z")
[Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_14_dating_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin) is the Wiki on the Shroud. As far as I can tell from reading this it wasn’t retested in 2013, so if the OP would be so kind as to cite such a test it would help the discussion. Maybe Cecil will readdress the question since it’s been a while now (assuming there is any new information).
I figure this is the part the OP is on about though:
> [@](#):
>
> Criticisms of the dating result
>
> These results, much expected by experts who had written articles on the subject in the press, still surprised many worldwide.[36] People who refuse to accept the result that the shroud was a medieval artefact, have put forward a range of hypotheses to discredit the dating.
> The sample was part of a later repair …
-Loup Garou
All teeth and no tail
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/4 "2013-10-30T15:54:57Z")
[New test dates Shroud of Turin to era of Christ](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/03/30/shroud-turin-display/2038295/).
> [@](#):
>
> The new test, by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy, used the same fibers from the 1988 tests but disputes the findings. The new examination dates the shroud to between 300 BC and 400 AD, which would put it in the era of Christ.
>
> It determined that the earlier results may have been skewed by contamination from fibers used to repair the cloth when it was damaged by fire in the Middle Ages, the British newspaper reported. The cloth has been kept at the cathedral since 1578.
>
> He also said his tests also supported earlier results claiming to have found traces of dust and pollen on that shroud that could only have come from the Holy Land.
>
> The latest findings are contained in a new Italian-language book — Il Mistero Della Sindone or The Mystery of the Shroud, by Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at Padua University, and Saverio Gaeta, a journalist.
>
> Fanti, a Catholic, used infra-red light and spectroscopy – the measurement of radiation intensity through wavelengths – in his test. He said the results are the outcome of 15 years of research.
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### Author:  [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/5 "2013-10-30T16:30:10Z")
[QUOTE=USA Today]
The latest findings are contained in a new Italian-language book — Il Mistero Della Sindone or The Mystery of the Shroud, by Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at Padua University, and Saverio Gaeta, a journalist.
[/QUOTE]
Reading the article makes it pretty clear it was based off of a press release from the book’s publisher, probably with absolutely no other source. So, yeah, let’s wait to call this meaningful for something a little closer to a peer reviewed journal article and a little farther from a press release designed to sell books.
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### Author:  [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/6 "2013-10-30T22:08:17Z")
MODERATOR NOTE: Please review our [FAQ: What’s the policy on copyrights?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7696968#post7696968). It is better (far) to provide a link to the source and quote a small, manageable amount. Quoting an entire article here is not in line with our rules. I have edited the quote down. **Loup** : I just took the first paragraph. If you’d prefer a different part of the quote, email me and I’ll be happy to edit.
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### Author:  [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/7 "2013-10-30T22:54:05Z")
I’m sure you know this, **Dex** , but just for the record, Wikipedia articles are available under the [Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike License](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_3.0_Unported_License) which permits reuse and redistribution of Wikipedia text [so long as a link to the article or other form of attribution is included alongside the text](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reusing_Wikipedia_content).
Of course, that only means that the Wikimedia Foundation allows the article to be copied. It doesn’t mean that Sun-Times Media has to allow the article to be copied _here_, and there may be good reasons for them not to.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/8 "2013-10-30T23:00:21Z")
> [@C K Zombie Raven](#):
>
> MODERATOR NOTE: Please review our [FAQ: What’s the policy on copyrights?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7696968#post7696968). It is better (far) to provide a link to the source and quote a small, manageable amount. Quoting an entire article here is not in line with our rules. I have edited the quote down. **Loup** : I just took the first paragraph. If you’d prefer a different part of the quote, email me and I’ll be happy to edit.
Just for the record, I didn’t quote the entire article, and I do know the policy here. I only quoted the bottom section of the Wiki starting at Criticisms of the dating result. But that’s fine…I’m sure if anyone is interested they can click the link.
-Loup Garou
Biting ignorance since 2013…it’s hurting more than we thought
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### Author:  [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/9 "2013-10-31T00:59:24Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#):
>
> I’m sure you know this, **Dex** , but just for the record, Wikipedia articles are available under the [Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike License](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_3.0_Unported_License) which permits reuse and redistribution of Wikipedia text [so long as a link to the article or other form of attribution is included alongside the text](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reusing_Wikipedia_content).
>
> Of course, that only means that the Wikimedia Foundation allows the article to be copied. It doesn’t mean that Sun-Times Media has to allow the article to be copied _here_, and there may be good reasons for them not to.
Interesting, glad to know that. However, our general rule is that the Moderators don’t have time or energy to discover which websites are OK to quote at length and which aren’t. So, it’s better to act first and etc etc later. Sorry 'bout that. I’ll not do it again, nevermore \>squawk\<
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### Author:  [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/10 "2013-10-31T01:11:44Z")
> [@C K Zombie Raven](#):
>
> However, our general rule is that the Moderators don’t have time or energy to discover which websites are OK to quote at length and which aren’t.
I assumed that was the reason. BTW, are you feeling all right? You sound kind of hoarse. Sitting on that marble bust can’t be comfortable. Maybe you should lie down.
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### Author:  [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/11 "2013-10-31T13:17:49Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#):
>
> I assumed that was the reason. BTW, are you feeling all right? You sound kind of hoarse. Sitting on that marble bust can’t be comfortable. Maybe you should lie down.
Hey, not everyone has the luxury of having a Pallas as a residence. Some of us are too Poe.
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### Author:  [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/12 "2013-11-01T12:58:46Z")
I don’t get why the shroud is not considered self-refuting by any rational person. The image of the face on the shroud is basically a front-projection, and not the distorted-looking shape that you’d see if it came from being wrapped around a head.
To me, that’s end-of-story. You can then talk about how old it is or what the pigment is made of, but the image certainly didn’t come from being wrapped around a body.
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### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/13 "2013-11-01T13:00:45Z")
> [@CurtC](#):
>
> I don’t get why the shroud is not considered self-refuting by any rational person. The image of the face on the shroud is basically a front-projection, and not the distorted-looking shape that you’d see if it came from being wrapped around a head.
>
> To me, that’s end-of-story. You can then talk about how old it is or what the pigment is made of, but the image certainly didn’t come from being wrapped around a body.
and even if it did - thats not evidence of who’s body
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### Author:  [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/14 "2013-11-01T13:59:29Z")
> [@CurtC](#):
>
> I don’t get why the shroud is not considered self-refuting by any rational person. The image of the face on the shroud is basically a front-projection, and not the distorted-looking shape that you’d see if it came from being wrapped around a head.
But that just leads to claims that it is some sort of flash photography event caused by the resurrection that trapped a non-wrapped image blah blah blah.
Yeah, it’s pathetic, but there it is.
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### Author:  [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/15 "2013-11-01T15:31:38Z")
> [@Irishman](#):
>
> Yeah, it’s pathetic, but there it is.
“Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities, all is vanity” – Ecc 1:2
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### Author:  [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/16 "2013-11-01T20:35:07Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#):
>
> Interesting, glad to know that. However, our general rule is that the Moderators don’t have time or energy to discover which websites are OK to quote at length and which aren’t. So, it’s better to act first and etc etc later. Sorry 'bout that. I’ll not do it again, nevermore \>squawk\<
I should point out that WP’s licensing also requires a statement of the license under which it’s available (in this case, CC-by-sa 3.0), which would negate the need for moderators to discover which websites are OK or not.
Powers &8^]
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### Author:  [@Rowanchilde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rowanchilde)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/17 "2013-11-01T20:52:34Z")
To answer the OP: Yes, Jesus really did exist.
Separating the man from the myth is a little more difficult…
An excellent book on the subject is Zealot by Reza Aslan [http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/religion/july-dec13/zealot\_09-24.html](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/religion/july-dec13/zealot_09-24.html)
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### Author:  [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/18 "2013-11-01T20:59:37Z")
> [@Powers](#):
>
> I should point out that WP’s licensing also requires a statement of the license under which it’s available (in this case, CC-by-sa 3.0), which would negate the need for moderators to discover which websites are OK or not.
> Powers &8^]
According to the second link I posted, that’s fulfilled by merely including a link to the article itself, which contains the licensing information. (You’re right that it’s not clear from the text of the license itself, which is why I included the link to Wikipedia’s policy. )
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### Author:  [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/19 "2013-11-02T02:42:08Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#):
>
> According to the second link I posted, that’s fulfilled by merely including a link to the article itself, which contains the licensing information. (You’re right that it’s not clear from the text of the license itself, which is why I included the link to Wikipedia’s policy. )
Er, not to nitpick, but the link in question states rather unequivocally: “Each copy or modified version that you distribute must include a licensing notice stating that the work is released under CC-BY-SA and either a) a hyperlink or URL to the text of the license or b) a copy of the license.”
A link to the article suffices to satisfy the attribution requirement, but not the licensing notification requirement.
Powers &8^]
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### Author:  [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/20 "2013-11-02T03:14:50Z")
Upon review, it appears that \* Powers\* is right and I am wrong. Now let’s all agree to pretend this never happened and never mention it again.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620.md?page=2)