# Did Jesus really exist? And what's with the Shroud of Turin? November 22, 1985 is incorrect because **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 30, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620 "2013-10-30T03:14:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/41 "2013-11-28T22:16:40Z")
Witnessing belongs in our Great Debates forum, by definition. > [@](#): > > For long-running discussions of the great questions of our time. This is also the place for religious debates and (if you feel you must) witnessing. ---
**Author:** ![imfaithy2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f9ae1b/32.png) [@imfaithy2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/imfaithy2)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/42 "2013-11-28T22:30:30Z")
Sorry for the many mispellings, etc. It’s time for my nap. Wake me up when it’s all over. It’s been fun, but I think I need sleep, nourishment and better focus, somewhere else. It’s been a slice. Thanks again, bye… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/43 "2013-11-28T22:31:24Z")
> [@imfaithy2](#): > > Hi, > > The original post by “Cecil Adams” states in part here: > > Doubts about the historicity of Christ did not surface until the 18th century… > > Since Cecil Adams he is the most intelligent creature and knows everything, he did not have any references, none being needed. I didn’t expect you guys, and I am female, by the way, to leave me alone, but you do help to sharpen the pen and keep the brain working. Thanks for that, and as I said, this debate could go on endlessly. I do not want to debate. I want to know and truly LOVE, APPRECIATE our creator. That is a full time job. > > Jehovah’s Witnesses have references upon references for statements made in the literature advocating that the bible. I sent you to the website to see if you really cared about that. Going subject by subject, crossreferenced to find all scriptures on a particular subject, makes it much easier to understand the theme as well as the general gyst of this compiled work. There will always be those who simply do not want to go there. That’s the choice free will gives us. I do not want to just go for the dazzle. > > By way of illustration, many of us do not like generic, homogenized food that is unrecognizable from the actual sweet fruits, veggies, milk, honey, etc… People who know and love real food tend to like earthly delights that are simple, recognizable and pure in taste. It’s the same with the message of the bible. > > Job talks about the circle of the earth, being hung opon nothing. Simple, but if you use common sense reasoning, knowing what we now know, this biblical person told us that the earth is round, and is held in place (amazingly) by gravity. He was speaking to an agricultural society that did not need any more explanation. They lived in a different time and place in history. > > At this particular point in mankind’s history, the available data in science and math of intelligent design are quite enormous and to the point. The idea that we came about by chance requires such a mathmatically huge number of chance happinstances as to be impossible by current professional standards. > > I refer you to WELL REFERENCED book that is put out by Jehovah’s Witnesses, current edition in 2006, Life—How Did It Get Here? By Evolution or by Creation? chapter 4 titled Could life get here by chance?" - page 38-53. There are also videos that constantly rotate in and out on the website that talk quite clearly about the awesome universe, not the Kardashians, who I certainly expect most of us already have way too much information about. tsk, tisk, TMI, TMI, right? Put the blinders on at the checkout aisle! > > Charles Darwin did not expect people to view his theories and his interest in promoting his own ideas as a sort of gospel. It is quite commendable that you want to have believable proofs, and this information is available to you by visiting our site or and looking at the references contained there. > > I am sure the staff of Straight Dope, a site I view as humorous in addition to whatever else it is, is quite prolific as well in its’ references. > > Czarcasm, with the catchy name, I have not posted over 35,000 times and have other things to do which for me take precidence. But I do understand that you are all expressing yourselves, and each are going to zero in on whatever floats your boat. > > I believe I did answer your query which was about the basis of statements showing the early Christians adhered to “The Way”, which was while the Romans ruling over Israel were still killing them rather than finding another way to cause havoc and apostacy (drawing away) from Christ’s unadulterated teachings. > > You can look to Acts 9:1, 2 to see that Saul, a Jewish Lawyer and Roman citizen who was the apostle Paul before his dramatic vision, blindness and conversion to Christianity, looked to find any who belonged to “The Way” to murder them. > > In John 14:6, 7Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. In addition to the main meahing, This statenent also references the name his disciples came to be known by AT THAT TIME PERIOD - DURING AND IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING HIS DEATH. After his APOSTLES died out, there were many sects, ideas, wolves in sheeps clothing coming in to mislead and be misled, changing agendas, corrupting them. > > I really thank the moderator, and hope for all of you that you find the peace I have. Whole lot of stuff here that really doesn’t have anything to do with the topic of the OP, which is about evidence for the existence of Jesus and the veracity of the Shroud of Turin. Care to talk about those specific topics? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/44 "2013-11-28T22:33:35Z")
> [@imfaithy2](#): > > Sorry for the many mispellings, etc. It’s time for my nap. Wake me up when it’s all over. It’s been fun, but I think I need sleep, nourishment and better focus, somewhere else. It’s been a slice. > > Thanks again, bye… Cute asides aside, I do hope you will actually converse _with_ us the next time you pop by. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/45 "2013-12-01T12:47:35Z")
MODERATOR INSTRUCTION: **imfaithy2** , this is a discussion of the shroud of Turin and its dating, and the existence of the historical Jesus. Job’s circles and evolution and Paul’s visions are not the topic here. If you return to this thread, please stick to topic. If you want to describe or discuss your faith, such conversations /witnessing belong in the forum called “Great Debates.” If you don’t return, of course, then it doesn’t matter where you don’t post. ---
**Author:** ![jinni73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@jinni73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinni73)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/46 "2013-12-02T03:26:25Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > The Gospels present the story of a very, _very_, extraordinary mind. As with the old joke about the _Iliad_ and the _Odyssey_, if it wasn’t Jesus, it must have been someone else by the same name. Titus Flavius according to one historian who has just written a book saying jesus story was really a roman emperor, we know the first person to write about jesus josepheus was living at the same time as Titus not jesus, another historian alf henrikkson says that no-one ever wrote about jesus while he was alive, we also know that december 25th is a pagan festival and that st peters square has the obelisk bought over from alexandria another pagan symbol, remember there is not one person who knows that the bible is correct only people who believe, The bible is used to keep people as serfs. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/47 "2013-12-02T11:23:51Z")
> [@jinni73](#): > > Titus Flavius according to one historian who has just written a book saying jesus story was really a roman emperor, > we know the first person to write about jesus josepheus was living at the same time as Titus not jesus, another historian alf henrikkson says that no-one ever wrote about jesus while he was alive, > we also know that december 25th is a pagan festival and that st peters square has the obelisk bought over from alexandria another pagan symbol, Any date on the modern calender would correspond to a Pagan holiday somewhere. The Romans in particular were famous for their many holidays… > [@](#): > > remember there is not one person who knows that the bible is correct only people who believe, > > The bible is used to keep people as serfs. Not a factual statement in the least… ---
**Author:** ![shortygee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecc23a/32.png) [@shortygee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shortygee)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/48 "2013-12-11T21:39:53Z")
The overwhelming majority of historians agree that Jesus did exist. I would encourage anyone interested to do their own research. I don’t want to recommend any references Because I wouldn’t want my biases to be a subject of debate. The real question is about his divinity. Remember we have our biases ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/49 "2013-12-11T22:44:56Z")
> [@shortygee](#): > > The real question is about his divinity. Not to the majority of religions in the world. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/50 "2013-12-14T17:26:33Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Please show your math. I have that. From George Wald, SciAm, 1954 explaining Oparin’s 1936 book _The Origin of Life_. For the event of just the right molecules colliding in just the right way: It doesn’t matter how small the probability of this event occurring in any given year, because when given enough years, the probability of this event occurring **just once** approaches certainty. Evolution assumes that once is enough. > [@imfaithy2](#): > > About the shroud - what is physical is temporary, the message Christ left us is what is important. What’s in a piece of cloth? Can the cloth cause us to change our thinking and put it in line with the model Christ left us? I think not. This is God’s Truth as I understand it, a piece of cloth is vanity and vexation of spirit and can only distract us from loving our brother as we love ourselves. Look at us, fighting over this. ---
**Author:** ![Geedavey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f6c823/32.png) [@Geedavey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geedavey)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/51 "2013-12-17T18:13:56Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > This is what happened after the Big Bang, which as everyone knows was simply the nothingness being caught in the act of farting. So the Big Bang was the propellant, while the astronomical movement provided the matter. > > Stephen Hawking has nothing on me. 🙂 If you’ve got propellant and material, you’ve done more than fart–and probably need a change of underwear. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/52 "2013-12-19T03:16:59Z")
> [@shortygee](#): > > The overwhelming majority of historians agree that Jesus did exist. I would encourage anyone interested to do their own research. I’ve done some, but aside from the Gospels and Josephus the evidence for a man named Jesus who was proclaimed King of the Jews and executed by the Romans is extremely sparse, as far as I can tell. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![jessyorkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jessyorkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jessyorkeee)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/53 "2013-12-19T15:35:11Z")
wow stuff like this seems so ludicrous to me. i doubt that was the shroud that was actually covering jesus’ body anyway. when it comes to religion you can find a hundred reasons to believe or not to believe, it’s really just your choice and your natural disposition that confirms which way you go. people just need to stop obsessing over holy grails, shrouds, finding arks, etc. you’ll never know! ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/54 "2013-12-19T22:25:39Z")
IF for the sake of argument I was to accept that the shroud came from 33AD or thereabouts and has markings caused by a body (I don’t), WHY does that imply that the body in question was Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/55 "2013-12-19T22:31:07Z")
Because it would increase the resale value of the shroud. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/56 "2013-12-26T07:25:08Z")
> [@Geedavey](#): > > If you’ve got propellant and material, you’ve done more than fart–and probably need a change of underwear. Ad that’s why the universe has all kinds of shit in it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wallstreeter43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@wallstreeter43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wallstreeter43)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/57 "2014-10-30T12:14:59Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > IF for the sake of argument I was to accept that the shroud came from 33AD or thereabouts and has markings caused by a body (I don’t), WHY does that imply that the body in question was Jesus? I know this reply is very late but this subject should be looked at again. First of all we know one thing for a fact. 1. No one in recorded history was crucified and tortured in the way that Jesup and the man of the shroud were crucified. This is one reason why many think that this is Jesus. I’m surprised that so many believers don’t know much about the shroud. 2. The image fits the gospel description of the passion and crucifixion of Christmas to the letter. ---
**Author:** ![wallstreeter43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@wallstreeter43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wallstreeter43)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/58 "2014-10-30T12:23:09Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > I’ve done some, but aside from the Gospels and Josephus the evidence for a man named Jesus who was proclaimed King of the Jews and executed by the Romans is extremely sparse, as far as I can tell. > Powers &8^] What you should find amazing is that any famous historian wrote anything at all about Jesus and Christianity since it was considered a very tiny sect of Judaism . If you are looking at it the way major New Testament scholars look at it it’s no wonder why almost all of them whether atheist , liberal theology, agnostic (Bart Ehrman ) or Christian scholar believes so strongly that the historic Jesus existed . If you went up to someone and told them that Alexander the Great didnt exist they would look at you like you need to be committed to an institution , yet Jesus whose group was extremely small back in the first century and belonged to an insignificant town had a much stronger historicity then even Alexander the Great whose most reliable writings were 300 to 490 years after his existence , yet nit one person doubts the existence of Alexander the Great . This is called having a bias that is not in line with the reality and majority of historical experts . ---
**Author:** ![wallstreeter43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@wallstreeter43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wallstreeter43)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/59 "2014-10-30T12:37:42Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Reading the article makes it pretty clear it was based off of a press release from the book’s publisher, probably with absolutely no other source. So, yeah, let’s wait to call this meaningful for something a little closer to a peer reviewed journal article and a little farther from a press release designed to sell books. And I agree and Fanti says he’s going to submit this to peer review . These are 3 new dating methods so we will have to wait fir him to prove himself to us , plus he will have to prove the chain of evidence that these fibers he has tested cam with from the flask that had cardinal ballestrero signature on it. But u don’t even need these tests to show that the shroud was much older then the now invalidated 1988 c14 tests. Remember that the team in charge of the 1988 tests failed to do a microchemical analysis to make sure that the sample tested was chemically the same as the rest of the shroud . The man who invalidates the 1988 c14 tests was Agnostic thermal chemist ray Rogers senior fellow at Los alamos labs who did have samples from the 1988 test and he also had fiber samples from all parts of the shroud including image areas and when he finished his chemical analysis he found that the 1988 sample was totally different chemically then the rest of the shroud. Then he found out why. Rogers found cotton interwoven into regular shroud linen , which is an obvious sign of a reweave . He then found madder dye in the 1988 c14 sample . He found no interwoven Cotten or madder dye in any other area of the shroud . He finished this off by doing a vanillin test on the sample area and on the rest if the shroud. Rogers found that the 1988 sample tested 37% positive for vanillin making it a totally newer piece then the rest of the shroud which tested negative for vanillin. Rogers then dated the rest of the shroud to between 1300 and 3000 years old . The reason for the wide date range is that Rogers had to account fir all the different storage conditions that could have effected the rate of vanillin loss during the shrouds history . There are many other historical evidences that show the shroud to be much older then medieval times . Rogers then submitted his research and was accepted by the peer reviewed chemical specialist journal thermochimica acta after 7 months . Here is a link to the peer reviewed paper [http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF](http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF) Few shroud experts don’t accept the now invalidated 1988 c14 tests ---
**Author:** ![wallstreeter43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@wallstreeter43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wallstreeter43)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2014, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620/60 "2014-10-30T12:46:25Z")
> [@jessyorkeee](#): > > wow stuff like this seems so ludicrous to me. i doubt that was the shroud that was actually covering jesus’ body anyway. when it comes to religion you can find a hundred reasons to believe or not to believe, it’s really just your choice and your natural disposition that confirms which way you go. people just need to stop obsessing over holy grails, shrouds, finding arks, etc. you’ll never know! Jessy, try telling this to Missouri lawyer mark Antonacci who deliberately set out to prove to his Christian girlfriend 25 years ago that Christianity was a fairy tale and started by trying to debunk the shroud . Not only did he fail to debunk the shroud but after 25 Years of research he changed his mind about the shroud bases on the evidences and eventually became a Christian. Here is one major fact here . 21st century science hasn’t been able to replicate this image with its unique properties . I’ve given u guys less the. .001% of what I have found in my 5+ years of researching the shroud. If you want to get an overview of what science currently knows about it there was a good presentation given by a doctor to a group of high school seniors on the shroud. The good thing here is that this doctor is in daily email contact with the Sturp team That was the only group of scientists that actually got permission to study the ahroud first hand for 5 straight 24 hour days in 1978. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/FcKTkjWkqEU/maxresdefault.jpg "Jesuit Grad Gives Presentation on the Shroud of Turin.wmv") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcKTkjWkqEU) This video is a good start fir anyone looking to research the shroud. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin-november-22-1985-is-incorrect-because/672620.md?page=4)