That’s a neat trick.
Thank you for the replies. I had wondered about the lack of visibility to McCrone’s work.
Where does he claim to be an orthodox Jew?
What are the unique features? Do they include “being able to fool carbon-dating”? This is the most bizarre element of this whole controversy to me. The shroud was dated decades ago, by three independent labs, each coming to a concordant result: somewhere between 1200 and 1300 AD. At that point, any rational-minded scientist would look at this issue and say, “all right, case closed - it’s a medieval forgery”. Instead, what we find is an extensive amount of people who decide that it must be real, and therefore there must be something wrong with the carbon dating. Why? What evidence is there that the shroud is actually legitimately the burial shroud of Christ 2000-odd years ago? It doesn’t match up with the kind of burial shrouds found in Jerusalem at the time, it doesn’t fit with carbon dating, and perusing the Wikipedia article, I can see absolutely nothing indicating that it must have been the burial cloth of Jesus. What am I missing here? Or are you just starting with your conclusion and trying to form the evidence around it?
Why is that ?
He could still believe that God raised this Godly man named Jesus from the dead. There are some Jews that believe this.
Schwortze has always been a very honest man about his journey , but an important part if this is that he is no longer secular anymore .
He would fall under the umbrella of inclusivist.
Remember did I did say that I’m an inclusivist and there are many good reasons fir this belief but that’s another thread 
Do you know what an orthodox Jew is? Has he actually claimed to be one?
Ur welcome 
The first problem was that everyone in sturp promised that they would share their findings with others . Mccrone broke the agreement . No one could get the results that Mccrone was finding so no one could confirm his findings .
Mccrone, an atheist was picked by ray rogers (an agnostic) for this job and Rogers, who is a man of science couldn’t understand why Mccrone acted this way .
Remember Ray Rogers initially accepted the 1988 c14 tests until a lady named Sue Benford came out with a paper about a reweave theory.
Rogers was furious and told his good friend secular Jew Barrie Schwortz that he had all the samples needed to destroy her theory and could do it in 5 minutes . Barrie basically told him to “go for it”
30 minutes later Barrie gets a call from Rogers saying " gosh she was right" when he found the cotton splice and madder dye etc.
Rogers considered Sue Benford to be part of the lunatic fringe of science when it came to shroud research, but he had to admit they were right when he confirmed it himself.
Rogers can’t be called a pro shroudists as he was quotes as saying that he doesn’t believe in miracles that can break the laws of nature. He was also one of the first scientists to push for teaching evolution in public schools when it wasnt popular to do so.
I believe I gave the link to the video presentation , but I’ll give it again.
Here he is giving a presentation infront if a crowd of evangelical Christians who are usually more anti shroudists then atheists because of their paranoia that the shroud is a catholic relic . He mention sitbthroighoutbteh video from the beginning he says that he knows that then are wishing that he’s a messianic Jew . The fact that he uses the term God willing shows he is a Jewish believe in God amd nit a secular Jew like he used to be. For him it was an 18 year journey of skepticism
Where in that video does he say that he is an orthodox Jew? That is your claim, and your claim just doesn’t make any sense.
Edited to add: You are using the fact that he said “God willing” as evidence of his orthodox Jewishness?
Really?
I’m a secular Jew and I use the term “God willing” all the time. So, you can’t rely on that to tell you anything.
Again accepting sensationalist papers that came out in 1988 is not a very balanced way to research things . Ray Rogers had the samples from the 1988 labs . He also took sticky tape samples from all over the shroud including image areas .
Why is it that you accepted the results from the labs and don’t accept Rogers later research that invalidates them . Stop for a second , throw out your emotional biases here and look at it from a completely neutral standpoint of science like Rogers did.
I want you to go and research for me whether the 1988 team did a microchemical analysis on the sample to make sure that it was chemically the same as the rest of the shroud. They didn’t and Rogers did and he found that the sample was chemically different . This is what lead him to look deeper .
Do this analysis was supposed to be common protocol, the 1988 team didn’t do it.
Don’t you believe that science is correcting or not ?
Again your assertion that these people decided it was real is called poisoning the well to seem that there isn’t any evidence at all for it’s authenticity . In fact it was the 1988 test that was the only evidence against its older age .
You obviously haven’t looked at the sudarium of oveido , the Hungarian pray manuscript and the mandylion as well as the Christ pantocrator to know that there is a plethora of evidences for its older age . I can bring papers from professional archeologists that talk about c14 being just one tool to help them determine the age of an artifact .
Can you say that you are looking at all the evidences honestly without a hidden bias ?
If so then u should be able to easily debunk these other evidences that I brought up here .
Rogers work is hard chemistry which is very hard to deny
Oh a side note, the 3 samples that the 3 labs got weren’t 3 different piece a it basically one piece from one area divides into 3.
If you want the list if the protocols violated by the 1988 team I would be very happy to provide it to you.
No I’m not using the claim that lack the he said god willing as evidence fir his orthodox Jewishness. Did you not read my post ? I said this was evidence that he wasn’t a secular Jew anymore .
Between minutes 55 and 56 he mentions that he and his family are orthodox , not ultra ultra orthodox and that there is a difference between the 2.
And before that he also mentions that he has no doubt after 18 years of research that this shroud wrapped the body of Jesus of Nazareth , now whether he was the messiah or not he doesn’t know yet.
And this is Barrie’s belief as of now .
Do you also say that it was God that brought you into shroud research ?
I would guess not
Barrie says this many times throughout the video and it’s well known throughout shroud circles that he is an Orthodox Jew .
I’m an atheist and I say that all the time.
The video is only 55 minutes long, and the part where the word “orthodox” pops up is around the 51 minute mark or so, where he mentions that his family is orthodox and he was an orthodox kid, but not ultra, ultra orthodox. This is not the same thing as claiming that he is now an orthodox Jew, which he definitely is not…“ultra ultra” or otherwise.
Oh my gosh man , Schwortz on his tedx talk video is described as an Oryhodox Jew, and there isn’t one time where he is quoted as saying that what they are saying about him is false .
If you can’t get Oryhodox Jew out if this then you just don’t want to see it lol.
This is bordering in ridiculous now.
That’s great , hopefully one day u will find God
By the way did you happen to catch the peer reviewed results just published from sam parnia’s aware study, which is the largest near death study ever undertaken ? I know this is off topic here but It might serve a purpose .
I find some people need to first get some initial evidence of an afterlife to take that next step to God. I find that atheists are. A little more comfortable with someone like parnia who was speaking at atheist conferences about 4 years back who is starting to change his mind.
Pay close attention to the 57 year old social worker whose nde was times by a series of bleeps from a device that was in the operating room and the fact that he accurately described what was happening in the operating room despite his heart failure . This is also 2.5 minutes after the initial deep brain wave surge that is missed by EEG readings .
Just something I thought is throw out there for the more open atheists, agnostics and the people on the fence.
You mean the one that he just published, the one that was a complete failure to find what they were looking to find?
Yes, we heard about it.
“Nothing unreal exists” - show me one bit of objective evidence for ‘GOD’.
You understand that anything that is qualified as an NDE (near death experience) is Not an experience of the ‘after life’ - by simple definition. there are many more mundane explanations for those ‘experiences’.
While NDEs are probably off-topic for this discussion, I think if you start a new thread in Great Debates about it you might get some responses.