# Did Jesus really exist? And what's with the Shroud of Turin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 17, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353 "2014-04-17T17:14:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/142 "2022-10-15T21:24:40Z")
Interesting. According to [this](https://www.worldhistory.org/Paul_the_Apostle/)… “Paul was a Diaspora Jew, a member of the party of the [Pharisees](https://www.worldhistory.org/Pharisees/), who experienced a revelation of the resurrected [Jesus](https://www.worldhistory.org/Jesus_Christ/). After this experience, he traveled widely throughout the [eastern Roman Empire](https://www.worldhistory.org/Byzantine_Empire/), spreading the “good news” that Jesus would soon return from heaven and usher in the reign of God (“the kingdom”). Paul was not establishing a new religion; he believed that his generation was the last before the end time when this age would be transformed. However, as time passed and Jesus did not return, the second century Church Fathers turned to Paul’s writings to validate what would ultimately be the creation of Christian dogma. Thus, Paul could be viewed as the founder of Christianity as a separate religion apart from [Judaism](https://www.worldhistory.org/disambiguation/judaism/).” So even though he got it all wrong, he went on to be the founder of Christianity? I’ll never understand how something like that works. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/143 "2022-10-15T21:29:03Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Paul was a Diaspora Jew, a member of the party of the [Pharisees](https://www.worldhistory.org/Pharisees/) I personally don’t think that his writing style, nor his easy conversion to Christian idea suggest that he was a very good Pharisee. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/144 "2022-10-15T21:39:55Z")
According to [this](https://www.worldhistory.org/Pharisees/)… “The [Pharisees](https://www.worldhistory.org/Pharisees/) were a Jewish sect that emerged c. 150 BCE and promoted the idea of priestly purity for all Jews, belief in providence or fate, **and the concept of the resurrection of the dead** , and taught that besides the commandments, Oral [Law](https://www.worldhistory.org/disambiguation/law/) was also passed down by [Moses](https://www.worldhistory.org/Moses/). Early Rabbinical [Judaism](https://www.worldhistory.org/disambiguation/judaism/) in the 2nd century CE claimed spiritual descent from the Pharisees.” It appears resurrection was a thing long before Jesus came into the picture (emphasis mine). I learn something new every day. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/145 "2022-10-15T21:46:20Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > It appears resurrection was a thing long before Jesus came into the picture (emphasis mine). I learn something new every day. How about 2 Kings 13:21? ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/146 "2022-10-15T21:51:43Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > How about 2 Kings 13:21? I’d never read that. Thanks. I guess people were getting resurrected left and right back in those days. Maybe that’s why nobody bothered to make a note of it when Jesus did. It’s funny how we don’t hear about it happening much lately. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/147 "2022-10-15T21:59:00Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > It’s funny how we don’t hear about it happening much lately. We don’t? I hear about it pretty frequently. [Here’s one example.](https://www.bbc.com/news/health-46510966) ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/148 "2022-10-15T22:10:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > We don’t? Yeah, that doesn’t count. She wasn’t dead dead. You can survive with no heartbeat and even no breathing for a few minutes without necessarily damaging your brain. I define death as **the irreversible cessation of all vital functions especially as indicated by the permanent stoppage of the heart, respiration, and brain activity.**. In this case, her brain obviously didn’t die. So let’s say someone is shown to be clinically dead (as described above) for multiple days, and they suddenly awaken in the morgue as if nothing happened. They’re perfectly fine. That’s a true resurrection. How many of those can you point to, not counting biblical references? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/149 "2022-10-15T22:13:11Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > She wasn’t dead dead. According to anyone who was contemporary with Jesus, she absolutely was. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/150 "2022-10-15T22:15:21Z")
That’s cute. The perfect dodge to my question. Exactly what I expected. People haven’t been resurrected since biblical times… in other words, like Adam and Eve, resurrection isn’t real. Case closed. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/151 "2022-10-15T22:27:40Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > So let’s say someone is shown to be clinically dead (as described above) for multiple days, and they suddenly awaken in the morgue as if nothing happened. How long Jesus lay dead in the tomb is kind of vague, but “multiple days” seems to be an exaggeration. He was laid in the tomb very soon after he died, sunset on Friday, and was not in the tomb by sunrise on Sunday – about 36 hours. How long his body was unconscious, not breathing and non-responsive is poorly documented. In theory, he could have been revived shortly after being placed in the tomb, assuming the loss of ichor from the stabbing was not too extreme, as no annalists were monitoring him alone in there. I still have difficulty understanding _why he was entombed_. “Crucifixion” meant you were stuck up there on the sticks, left to expire from dehydration, and then _still left up there_ for the scavengers to pick at the body, and only finally removed by the guy who cleans up the fallen bones. the story just does not work. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/152 "2022-10-15T22:31:43Z")
Then he never really died, did he, and his resurrection is just a myth. It may have looked like a resurrection to the locals who didn’t know better, but we now know that it couldn’t have been one. Another brick crumbles Well, he died eventually. He was a human being, after all. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/153 "2022-10-15T22:41:50Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Do most Christians keep Kosher? That’s news to me. A few. But there was a big Conference between James( the Brother of Jesus), Peter, and Paul. James was interested in converting Jews, and following the Laws, but Paul wanted to convert Gentiles, so they agreement was that Gentiles would only have to follow the Noahide laws > **[Seven Laws of Noah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah)** > > In Judaism, the Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח, Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach), otherwise referred to as the Noahide Laws or the Noachian Laws (from the Hebrew pronunciation of "Noah"), are a set of universal moral laws which, according to the Talmud, were given by God as a covenant with Noah and with the "sons of Noah"—that is, all of humanity. > The Seven Laws of Noah include prohibitions against worshipping idols, cursing God, murder, adultery and sexual immorality, theft, eating fl... _The Seven Laws of Noah include prohibitions against [worshipping idols](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry), [cursing God](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy), [murder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder), [adultery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery#Judaism) and [sexual immorality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fornication#Judaism), [theft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft), [eating flesh torn from a living animal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_live_animals), as well as the obligation to establish [courts of justice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_system)._ Chief was circumcision not be required. > [@dolphinboy](#): > > So let’s say someone is shown to be clinically dead (as described above) for multiple days, and they suddenly awaken in the morgue as if nothing happened. They’re perfectly fine. That’s a true resurrection. How many of those can you point to, not counting biblical references? In the NT, only Jesus. And even that could be His spirit. > [@eschereal](#): > > I still have difficulty understanding _why he was entombed_. “Crucifixion” meant you were stuck up there on the sticks, left to expire from dehydration, and then _still left up there_ for the scavengers to pick at the body, and only finally removed by the guy who cleans up the fallen bones. the story just does not work. You bribe the guards of course. And Pilate wasn’t all that thrilled about it anyway, maybe he allowed it…once he is dead, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/154 "2022-10-15T22:49:11Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > That’s cute. The perfect dodge to my question. It’s not a dodge at all. You asked why there aren’t stories of resurrections like in the Bible. There are stories about resurrections in the Bible (and other pre-modern sources, of course) because people back then defined death as “not moving or breathing.” We know that people can be in states where they’re not moving or (obviously) breathing, and that they can recover, so we can reason that at least some of those resurrection stories were based on situations like that: someone was in a coma with very shallow breathing, recovered, and that recovery was attributed to supernatural forces. So, yeah, we still hear about resurrections like they had in the Bible, we just have more accurate language to describe it. On top of that, of course, we absolutely still have [stories of people who die, go to heaven, then return to life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience#Psychological_explanations). They’re actually pretty common, and there are a number of non-supernatural theories to explain them, but there’s also millions of people who believe that they represent a genuine spiritual experience after a literal death. So, while “God bringing people back from the dead,” is absolutely not a thing that happens, because there is no such thing as God, “Why don’t we have resurrection stories anymore?” isn’t a valid argument to demonstrate that, because we absolutely do have resurrection stories like in the Bible, both in the sense of “That still happens, we just have a better understanding of what’s actually going on,” and in the sense that there are people alive today who literally believe that they died and were returned to life by Jesus, and go around telling stories about it. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2022, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/155 "2022-10-15T23:55:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > we absolutely do have resurrection stories like in the Bible, both in the sense of “That still happens, we just have a better understanding of what’s actually going on,” and in the sense that there are people alive today who literally believe that they died and were returned to life by Jesus, and go around telling stories about it. Where to start? Dance all you want around your specific definition of resurrection and how we just don’t call it that anymore, but people don’t die for days and then suddenly come back to life, and they didn’t in biblical times, unless you are proposing a natural way for someone to die and come back to life many days later (ala Frankenstein) that we have never seen before. It certainly doesn’t happen now. Yes, we have more tools to diagnose whether someone is dead versus being in a coma than they did back then, but that doesn’t change what really happened. **Remember, I don’t have to prove that people didn’t die for days and then suddenly come to life; you just have to prove they did.** Can someone be mistakenly thought to have died during biblical times but really didn’t? Of course, that’s possible, but that doesn’t change the fact that people didn’t die for days and suddenly come back to life. If someone wants to base a religion on the misbelief that someone may have only looked like they had died and then woke up 36 hours later and everyone thought it was a resurrection, that’s fine, but do you want to believe in a religion that’s based on a misunderstanding of what really happened? As far as lots of people swearing they died, went to heaven, and returned… you’re right! I totally agree with you, and I am 100% certain people think they have experienced that. It happens all the time. The funny thing is when you deprive the human brain of oxygen, people often experience the same hallucinations. They’ve known about that for at least 100 years. They rise above their bodies and see themselves laying there, they see a tunnel and a bright white light ahead of them. They move toward the light, and then suddenly, they’re back in their bed or on the operating table, and everything seems normal to them again. It’s not a mystery, it’s a known [Deathbed phenomena](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathbed_phenomena). Scientists believe these hallucinations occur due to a number of causes. including but not limited to cerebral hypoxia (lack of oxygen to the brain), confusion, delirium, body systems failures (e.g., renal, hepatic, pulmonary), and a mental reaction to stress. Do these people actually visit heaven? Of course not, they are having a fairly common hallucination. **Remember, I don’t have to prove they didn’t go to heaven; you just have to prove they did.** ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2022, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/156 "2022-10-16T00:05:19Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Remember, I don’t have to prove they didn’t go to heaven; you just have to prove they did. No, I don’t, because I’m not arguing that they’ve gone to heaven. Because there’s no such place. Are you somehow under the impression that I’m arguing a pro-theist position here? ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2022, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/157 "2022-10-16T00:06:37Z")
Then why did you bring it up? Ignore my response, then. So we agree. No such thing as a “biblical” resurrection, and no such thing as heaven! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2022, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/158 "2022-10-16T00:10:06Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Then why did you bring it up? Because you asked why we don’t have stories about people coming back from the dead in the modern day, and I thought I could answer your question. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2022, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/159 "2022-10-16T00:13:09Z")
I still don’t see how Deathbed phenomena is somehow connected to the lack of modern-day resurrections. I guess I just missed your point. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2022, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/160 "2022-10-16T00:24:33Z")
For me the answeres are: No. and a hoax. I haven’t read the rest yet, but that’s what I thought as soon as I read the op. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2022, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353/161 "2022-10-16T00:33:29Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Also, every evangelist, preacher, pastor, priest or other Christian leader I have heard all said Jesus walked the earth, performed wonderous miracles, was crucified, and was resurrected. This means that you have only heard fundamentalists. The biggest division among Christians is arguably between fundamentalists and modernists. For an intro, see: [Christians hold many views on Jesus’ resurrection – a theologian explains the differing views among Baptists](https://theconversation.com/christians-hold-many-views-on-jesus-resurrection-a-theologian-explains-the-differing-views-among-baptists-181386) I guess there is a third group of Christian leaders — those who avoid saying if they are fundamentalists or modernists in order to avoid alienating large segments of the flock. When Queen Elizabeth II — certainly a Christian leader — gave her annual Christmas addresses, I don’t recall her saying much about the resurrection, one way or the other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin/686353.md?page=9)