# Did Jesus say he was the son of God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624 "2018-07-10T00:33:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/1 "2018-07-10T00:33:32Z")
It’s been a long time since I did religious studies classes. Did Jesus say he was the son of God, or was it a label that his followers bestowed upon him? Did he believe himself to be divine/semi-divine, or did he believe he was just a mere mortal prophet/messenger of God? I appreciate that the sources, like the Bible, may not necessarily present a historically accurate report of what Jesus actually said about this subject (assuming he existed). ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/2 "2018-07-10T00:45:46Z")
If you’re not going to accept the Bible or other sources like that, then there are no sources to anything he may have said. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/3 "2018-07-10T00:48:31Z")
The Bible is really all we have to go on. Using the King James Version: > [@](#): > > John 10:30-36 > > 30 I and my Father are one. > > 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. > > 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? > > 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. > > 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? > > 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; > > 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? > > SOURCE: [John 10 KJV - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that - Bible Gateway](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10&version=KJV) He says it there in #36. > [@](#): > > John 11:1-4 > > 1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. > > 2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.) > > 3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick. > > 4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. > > SOURCE: [John 11 KJV - Now a certain man was sick, named - Bible Gateway](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11&version=KJV) He says it again there in #4. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/4 "2018-07-10T00:55:09Z")
One more: > [@](#): > > Matthew 16:13-17 > > 13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? > > 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. > > 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? > > 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. > > 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. > > SOURCE: [Matthew 16 KJV - The Pharisees also with the Sadducees - Bible Gateway](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16&version=KJV) ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/5 "2018-07-10T01:06:12Z")
He calls himself “the son of Man” a lot more though. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/6 "2018-07-10T01:19:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The Bible is really all we have to go on. > > Using the King James Version: > > … It looks like quotation marks were invented after the Bible was written - and what a revelation they must have been! 😃 So, according to the Bible at least, Jesus _did_ believe himself to be the son of God. A follow-up question then. Were there any other Jesuses in the ancient Near East that we know of - individual people who declared themselves divine and managed to gather up a circle of followers, for a time at least? I’ve heard about the other Judaean sects of the time and so on, but have no knowledge of whether they were considering themselves divine. Also, did Muhammad consider himself divine or just divinely-inspired? ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/7 "2018-07-10T01:47:26Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > He calls himself “the son of Man” a lot more though. Jesus was both fully God and fully man. And regardless of which phrase is used, “Son of God” or “Son of man” – the word “Son” is capitalized, at least in the KJV. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/8 "2018-07-10T01:48:35Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > It looks like quotation marks were invented after the Bible was written - and what a revelation they must have been! 😃 > > So, according to the Bible at least, Jesus _did_ believe himself to be the son of God. > > A follow-up question then. **Were there any other Jesuses in the ancient Near East that we know of - individual people who declared themselves divine and managed to gather up a circle of followers, for a time at least?** > > I’ve heard about the other Judaean sects of the time and so on, but have no knowledge of whether they were considering themselves divine. > > Also, did Muhammad consider himself divine or just divinely-inspired? Wikipedia’s list of Messiah claimants: [List of Jewish messiah claimants - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants) ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/9 "2018-07-10T01:49:33Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > A follow-up question then. Were there any other Jesuses in the ancient Near East that we know of - individual people who declared themselves divine and managed to gather up a circle of followers, for a time at least? Jesus and Joshua are forms of the same Hebrew name, so technically, there were a whole bunch of Jesuses running around. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/10 "2018-07-10T01:53:17Z")
Let’s not forget [Matthew 3:16-17](http://biblehub.com/kjv/matthew/3.htm) > [@](#): > > And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/11 "2018-07-10T02:05:15Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > Wikipedia’s list of Messiah claimants: [List of Jewish messiah claimants - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants) Is a messiah divine, though? It sounds as though they are human but divinely-inspired. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/12 "2018-07-10T02:14:38Z")
But didn’t he also instruct his followers to pray “our father, who art in heaven?”. Not that I believe he necessarily said everything the Bible claims he did, just pointing out that it didn’t always appear that he considered himself the only child of God. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/13 "2018-07-10T02:20:19Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > But didn’t he also instruct his followers to pray “our father, who art in heaven?”. Not that I believe he necessarily said everything the Bible claims he did, just pointing out that it didn’t always appear that he considered himself the only child of God. Well, Jesus said: > [@](#): > > John 14:6-7 > > 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. > > 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. > > SOURCE: [John 14 KJV](http://biblehub.com/kjv/john/14.htm) Remember the Trinity. Jesus is the son and god and the Holy Ghost at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/14 "2018-07-10T02:27:22Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Is a messiah divine, though? It sounds as though they are human but divinely-inspired. Possibly not, but it’s probably the closest you’ll get in Judaism (and its descendants). If you look to other religions, you’ll find a bunch of those “(grand)sons of (a) God”; from ancient Egyptian kings through Alexander the Great and Roman Caesars all the way to Emperor Hirohito… ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/15 "2018-07-10T02:31:28Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > So, according to the Bible at least, Jesus _did_ believe himself to be the son of God. The bible is not a consistent, monolithic work. Since it was written by many authors over many centuries, it is logical that not all parts agree with each other. Anytime you say “according to the Bible,” it would be wise to say which parts of the Bible you are referring to. If you quote from John, you are quoting from one of the later, more-developed books, which includes stuff that is not in the earliest gospels like Mark. It seems likely that the later writers embellished as they felt so inclined; the tale grew with the telling; and the man became more like a god. The biblical writers didn’t feel a need for truth or accuracy, but a need to promote their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/16 "2018-07-10T02:52:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@P-man](#): > > > > But didn’t he also instruct his followers to pray “our father, who art in heaven?”. Not that I believe he necessarily said everything the Bible claims he did, just pointing out that it didn’t always appear that he considered himself the only child of God. > > Well, Jesus said: > > > [@](#): > > > > John 14:6-7 > > > > 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. > > > > 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. > > > > SOURCE: [John 14 KJV](http://biblehub.com/kjv/john/14.htm) But couple that with yet another famous Jesus quote: the bit about how he hungered, and you gave him meat; he was thirsty, and you gave him drink; he was a stranger, and you took him in; he was naked, and you clothed him; he was sick, and he was in prison, and so on, and you were there for him — and if this is puzzling, and prompts folks to say, _uh, I don’t remember feeding you when you were hungry, or the thing with the clothes; and I sure don’t remember visiting you when you were sick or in prison,_ the reply is, oh, hey, when you did that for someone else, you did it unto me. Which means — as far as I can tell — that, yeah, he says stuff about how what you do with regard to him is some kind of royal road to God the Father; but I figure that any uniqueness implied by that vanishes if he says that what you do to ‘some other guy’ is what you’re doing with regard to Jesus; he’s one with, uh, _both,_ I guess? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/17 "2018-07-10T04:52:08Z")
As I understood things - Jesus was a Jewish zealot (See Reza Aslan’s book _Zealot_) who wanted to restore the Temple to its glory and expected divine intervention to kick out the temple hierarchy and the Romans. He was executed as a threat to public order on the pretence that he was fomenting rebellion; not difficult after he ransacked the Temple market. Years later Paul had some sort of mind-blowing experience - medical or otherwise - and basically made up a lot of the embellishments that made Christianity a religion full of mysticism to appeal to the gentiles of the Eastern Mediterranean, including such mystical 3-in1 doctrine as the trinity. He also claimed for himself the mantle of “apostle” and that it was unnecessary to consider the original followers as he had all the answers. The followers who hung around the temple tolerated him saying whatever he wanted to the gentiles provided he did not try to pervert members of the Jewish faith. When the Romans destroyed the temple and murdered most of Jerusalem, that left Paul’s as the dominant version. Over the next few centuries, the gospels were collected and embellished to match Paul’s message. So many of those quotes are as likely as not writer embellishments, putting words in Jesus mouth to match the orthodoxy of the early church; just as the “gospels” that did not match up with the message of the dominant sect of the church were relegated to the apocrypha and suppressed. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/18 "2018-07-10T05:58:22Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Jesus was both fully God and fully man. In your opinion. This is never stated explicitly in the Bible, and in fact there was considerable debate in the early church as to whether Jesus was only divine, only human, both human and divine, or something else entirely. The issue was not fully settled until the 5th century CE, but even today there is widespread disagreement among the major traditional churches on the exact nature of the duality, and it wouldn’t surprise me if there were still some restorationist sects out there who believe that Jesus had only a single nature and who believe that the scriptures support this belief. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/19 "2018-07-10T06:25:06Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > If you quote from John, you are quoting from one of the later, more-developed books, which includes stuff that is not in the earliest gospels like Mark. It seems likely that the later writers embellished as they felt so inclined; the tale grew with the telling; and the man became more like a god. On the other hand, for what it’s worth, John is the only one of the gospels that is claimed to be written by, or at least based on the testimony of, one of Jesus’s disciples. The earliest-written parts of the New Testament, most scholars agree, are the letters of Paul, and one of them contains a passage where many believe Paul is quoting an even-older hymn or poem: [QUOTE=Philippians 2:5-11] Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross. Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. [/QUOTE] So it’s not as though the earliest writings showed Jesus as a mere man, and the divine part got added on later. > [@](#): > > The biblical writers didn’t feel a need for truth or accuracy, but a need to promote their beliefs. I don’t know how you can say what the writers “felt a need for”; but Luke, at least, claims to have some interest in presenting the gospel (heh) truth: [QUOTE=Luke 1:1-4] Since many have undertaken to set down an orderly account of the events that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed on to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, I too decided, after investigating everything carefully from the very first, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the truth concerning the things about which you have been instructed. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/20 "2018-07-10T06:26:47Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Also, did Muhammad consider himself divine or just divinely-inspired? Definitely not divine, just divinely-inspired—at least, that’s the official Islamic point of view. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624.md?page=2)