# Did Jesus say he was the son of God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624 "2018-07-10T00:33:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/61 "2018-07-11T18:52:24Z")
> [@simster](#): > > complete.utter.bullshit > > If it was GOD inspired, GOD should be able to do it without needing tranlation, transliteration and ‘you just don’t understand it’ excuses. This is all tangential to the current thread. But when I, out of curiosity, googled bible inconsistencies (and got lots of hits including secularist/atheist sites, fundamentalist sites, and a [pretty good Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_consistency_of_the_Bible)), one of the [first sites](https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html) that came up included this disclaimer: > [@](#): > > IMPORTANT: These lists are meant to identify _possible_ problems in the Bible, especially those that are inherent in a _literalist_ or _fundamentalist_ interpretation. Keep in mind, however, that what constitutes a valid problem is to some extent a matter of opinion. You may disagree that these are, in fact, genuine biblical problems, but it is the author’s opinion that a perfect and omnipotent God could, should, and would see to it that such problems did not exist in a book which s/he had inspired. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/62 "2018-07-11T19:29:26Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > No such things exist. > > Anytime two passages appear to contradict each other, it is simply and solely because you do not understand one or both passages. Once both are fully understood, the apparent contradiction disappears. So how long was it after the crucifixion before Jesus reappeared to his followers? One version is in human days and the other in dog days, or somesuch? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/63 "2018-07-12T00:56:03Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > He could, however, be making that claim on behalf of every human, not exclusively himself. He could also have been making a statement somewhat akin to _this_: “I am the Son of God, just as all of us are children of God. Over yonder walks the Son of God who bakes bread. Down the path to my right travels the Daughter of God who takes in laundry. I happen to the the Son of God who bears to you a message from God. You shouldn’t believe that just because I say it is so, but you should listen to it and make up your own mind. If it’s from God, you’ll know. It’ll make sense and shit. But at any rate, you should never dismiss another person as insufficiently holy to be bearing a message of that importance because we’re all children of God even if we don’t always act like it” ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/64 "2018-07-12T01:28:56Z")
> [@Bonzi](#): > > Again, I’m not talking in absolutes. I guess you could say when I say “believe in the Bible” you believe it is what it claims to be. Or, what your religion claims it is. > > Everyone will admit there are certainly truths in the Bible. However, not so many would commit to saying they believe it is the inspired word of God. In fact, the number who can make that commitment **honestly** is exactly zero, with allowances made for those whose commitment is an honest mistake due to mental incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/65 "2018-07-12T01:31:39Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > No such things exist. > > Anytime two passages appear to contradict each other, it is simply and solely because you do not understand one or both passages. Once both are fully understood, the apparent contradiction disappears. OK… “…when Quirinius was governor of Syria.” The historical record proves that Quirinius was only ever governor of Syria long after Herod was dead. Fix it. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/66 "2018-07-12T01:36:04Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > He could also have been making a statement somewhat akin to _this_: “I am the Son of God, just as all of us are children of God. Over yonder walks the Son of God who bakes bread. Down the path to my right travels the Daughter of God who takes in laundry. I happen to the the Son of God who bears to you a message from God. You shouldn’t believe that just because I say it is so, but you should listen to it and make up your own mind. If it’s from God, you’ll know. It’ll make sense and shit. But at any rate, you should never dismiss another person as insufficiently holy to be bearing a message of that importance because we’re all children of God even if we don’t always act like it” coulda/woulda/shoulda - I can make all kinds of stuff up that he could’ve been saying. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/67 "2018-07-12T05:37:10Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > OK… “…when Quirinius was governor of Syria.” > > The historical record proves that Quirinius was only ever governor of Syria long after Herod was dead. Fix it. I’m surprised that you would turn to such a weak, well-known “problem” as your attempt at a gotcha. It’s really quite pathetic. I learned the solution to this one when I was a child. #1– It really does not matter what the historical record shows. The history was written by fallible, error-prone mankind. The Bible was inspired by infallible God. Therefore, if there is a conflict between the two, the Bible wins by default. #2– You really should keep up with the times. Even disregarding the Bible, it has been shown that Quirinius was in Syria **twice**. > [@](#): > > Interestingly, archaeological discoveries in the nineteenth century seem to confirm Quirinius (or someone with the same name) was also proconsul of Syria and Cilicia from 11 BC to the death of Herod. Quirinius’s name has been discovered on a coin from this period of time (as cited by John McRay in Archaeology and the New Testament), and on the base of a statue erected in Pisidian Antioch (as cited by Sir William Ramsay, The Bearing of Recent Discovery on the Trustworthiness of the New Testament). Quirinius may actually have ruled Syria during two separate periods and have taken two separate censuses. This is consistent with Luke’s account. > **[Unbelievable? Is Luke's Description of Quirinius Historically Inaccurate? |...](https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/unbelievable-is-lukes-description-of-quirinius-historically-inaccurate/)** > > Did Luke make a mistake when he claimed Joseph and Mary returned to Bethlehem for a census while Quirinius was governor of Syria? Is his gospel unreliable? > [@](#): > > There was found near Tibur (Tivoli) in AD.1764 a fragment of marble with part of an inscription, which is now preserved in the Lateran Museum of Christian Antiquities, as one of the important monuments bearing on the history of Christianity. The inscription records the career and honors of a Roman official who lived in the reign of Augustus, and survived that emperor. He conquered a nation; he was rewarded with two Supplicationes and the Ornamenta Triumphalia, i.e., he gorgeous dress of a triumphing general, with ivory scepter and chariot, etc.; he governed Asia as proconsul; and he twice governed Syria as legatus of the divine Augustus. > > Though the name has perished, yet these indications are sufficient to show with practical certainty (as all the highest authorities are agreed – Mommsen, Borghesi, de Rossi, Henzen, Dessau, and others), that the officer who achieved this splendid career was Publius Sulpicius Quirinius. His government of Syria, AD.6-9, was therefore his second tenure of that office. [http://biblehub.com/library/ramsay/was\_christ\_born\_in\_bethlehem/chapter\_11\_quirinius\_the\_governor.htm](http://biblehub.com/library/ramsay/was_christ_born_in_bethlehem/chapter_11_quirinius_the_governor.htm) If you actually put some thought into it, maybe you can do better next time. I’m tired of these weak, lame, pathetic, half-assed attempts. My grandma, who never graduated from high school, could have answered this one without breaking a sweat. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/68 "2018-07-12T07:45:13Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I’m surprised that you would turn to such a weak, well-known “problem” as your attempt at a gotcha. It’s really quite pathetic. I learned the solution to this one when I was a child. > > #1– > It really does not matter what the historical record shows. The history was written by fallible, error-prone mankind. The Bible was inspired by infallible God. Therefore, if there is a conflict between the two, the Bible wins by default. > > #2– > You really should keep up with the times. Even disregarding the Bible, it has been shown that Quirinius was in Syria **twice**. > [http://coldcasechristianity.com/2017/unbelievable-is-lukes-description-of-quirinius-historically-inaccurate/](http://coldcasechristianity.com/2017/unbelievable-is-lukes-description-of-quirinius-historically-inaccurate/) > [Quirinius the Governor of Syria](http://biblehub.com/library/ramsay/was_christ_born_in_bethlehem/chapter_11_quirinius_the_governor.htm) > > If you actually put some thought into it, maybe you can do better next time. I’m tired of these weak, lame, pathetic, half-assed attempts. My grandma, who never graduated from high school, could have answered this one without breaking a sweat. I do hope that your first response was a joke. As to your second response, I do not doubt that websites dedicated to promoting the Bible made such a conclusion from such weak evidence, but could you perhaps provide a cite from a more impartial source that came to the same conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/69 "2018-07-12T11:18:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Remember the Trinity. Jesus is the son and god and the Holy Ghost at the same time. Yeah, but he only said that to get triple the Christmas presents. And it worked ! ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/70 "2018-07-12T13:52:49Z")
Bullfeathers. I know from experience that having your B-Day on Xmas means “I got you one big present.” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/71 "2018-07-12T14:01:01Z")
Gold, frankincense AND myrrh. I rest my case. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/72 "2018-07-12T14:43:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Gold, frankincense AND myrrh. I rest my case. rebuttle: 1 gift from each ‘wise’ man. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/73 "2018-07-12T16:18:29Z")
Point. Dammit, I hate being out-smartass’d. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/74 "2018-07-12T18:37:45Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > He calls himself “the son of Man” a lot more though. That’s just an Aramaic expression for a person. It is pretty much the equivalent of calling oneself a “just a regular guy.” There’s nothing mysterious about it. It’s in a few other places in the bible, and it’s in the Talmud. To the extent that moshiach (messiah) is referred to as a “son of man,” the understanding seems to be the he will be an ordinary person, which would seem to rule out someone who was in any way divine-- albeit, in Judaism, such people do not exist. Half-gods were an Egyptian and Hellenistic thing. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/75 "2018-07-12T18:56:05Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > That’s just an Aramaic expression for a person. It is pretty much the equivalent of calling oneself a “just a regular guy.” There’s nothing mysterious about it. It’s in a few other places in the bible, and it’s in the Talmud. But that’s not necessarily the way the phrase is used in the Gospels. [Wikipedia has a whole big article on the phrase.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_man_(Christianity)) > [@Wikipedia](#): > > The meaning of the expression is controversial. Interpretation of the use of “the Son of man” in the New Testament has remained challenging and after 150 years of debate no consensus on the issue has emerged among scholars. > … > The use of the definite article in “the Son of man” in the Koine Greek of the Christian gospels is original, and before its use there, no records of its use in any of the surviving Greek documents of antiquity exist. Geza Vermes has stated that the use of “the Son of man” in the Christian gospels is unrelated to Hebrew Bible usages. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/76 "2018-07-13T00:03:41Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > No such things exist. > > Anytime two passages appear to contradict each other, it is simply and solely because you do not understand one or both passages. Once both are fully understood, the apparent contradiction disappears. Sigh. Try Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. In the first man and woman are created together, after vegetation is created. In the second Adam is created, when no shrubs are there, then God plants the garden in Eden, then Eve is created. Sure literalists weasel their way around this. Sarah Huckabee Sanders says Trump never lies. If you want something, it is easy to blind yourself to the obvious. Lucky God didn’t create editors first. If he did this nonsense would have gotten rejected with a check mark by return mail. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/77 "2018-07-13T03:39:11Z")
The Bible is written by God because it says it was written by God? That proof texting would be laughed out of any mainline Protestant seminary. I’m not Catholic, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the same happened in most Catholic seminaries. Many of us Christians don’t believe the Bible was handed down by God on some type of celestial dictophone. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/78 "2018-07-13T03:39:43Z")
Also worth noting is that the idea of deifying human people - _[apotheosis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotheosis)_ - was well-established in the ancient world. This was most evident with rulers, who helped tie down their legitimacy through associating themselves with the gods or becoming gods themselves, such as through through the use of an [imperial cult](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult). The Egyptian pharoahs were considered gods by their people, as were many Roman emperors and some members of their families. Julius Caesar was formally deified in the year 42 BCE, and Caesar Augustus, who was emperor during the time of Jesus’ birth and early childhood, became known as _divi filius_ (“Son of the Divine One”). A century later, Vespasian even deified a young Greek youth, his young lover Antinous, following his early death and a cult dedicated to him developed throughout the Empire. Alexander the Great had also considered himself a deity, although there is debate as to whether this was due to his megalomania or pragmatism, due to the need to rule over conquered peoples who had believed their old kings to be gods. Members of the Ptolemaic dynasty, Alexander’s successors in Egypt, were also raised to the status of divinity posthumously. Wikipedia has an interesting [list of people who have been considered deities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_been_considered_deities) with other examples. Jesus would seem to be a bit different from most other cases described above in that he’s not a ruler, instead being a humble carpenter, and he’s not part of a polytheistic religious belief system, Judaism being strictly monotheistic by Jesus’ time. A person claiming divinity is more likely to be remembered in the historical record if they are a ruler or if people keep following them for a long time, so that perhaps doesn’t rule out there being other Jesus-like figures who are forgotten by history, just as Jesus does not have a lot of historical evidence outside of the Bible. One non-ruler of a similar time and location to Jesus who appears to have been considered as divine by his followers was [Simon Magus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Magus) (“Simon the Magician”). A convert to Christianity living in the 1st century AD, Simon founded the Gnostic sect known as Simonianism, which survived for another three hundred years. He makes an appearance in the New Testament, which begins: > [@](#): > > But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the great power [Gr. _Dynamis Megale_] of God.” And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. > > - Acts 8:9-11 According to the 2nd century Greek cleric Irenaeus, > [@](#): > > [Simon] was glorified by many as if he were a god; and he taught that it was himself who appeared among the Jews as the Son, but descended in Samaria as the Father while he came to other nations in the character of the Holy Spirit. He represented himself, in a word, as being the loftiest of all powers, that is, the Being who is the Father over all, and he allowed himself to be called by whatsoever title men were pleased to address him. As an aside, it was interesting, with Jesus being known as the “Good Shepherd”, to read [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_king) that kings in the ancient Near East were styled as shepherds from much earlier times. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/79 "2018-07-13T13:17:20Z")
Quite a few things in the Bible have no other source to back them up, most notably Jesus rising from the dead. When I asked a rah-rah Christian to back this up, he stated “5,000 people saw him after he rose from the dead.” And where did he get that idea? “Well, the Bible says so.” ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624/80 "2018-07-13T13:55:56Z")
Arguably, every Gospel account (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) have Jesus claiming to be God or equal with God. I say “arguably” because some of the claims have plausible deniability. For example, in Mark’s account of Jesus’ trial he is asked if he is the Messiah (being the Messiah did not imply Godhood – the Jews did not have any expectation that the Messiah would be God, but a human savior along the lines of King David.) Not only does Jesus agree that he is the Messiah, but he says, “I am.” This echoes the words of God to Moses in Exodus, when Moses asks for God’s name and says “When I go make these demands of Pharaoh, who shall I say sent me?” and God says “I am who I am. When you go, tell them that I AM sent you.” That’s where the name of God (YHWH/Yahweh/Jehova) comes from. When Jesus is asked if he is the Messiah and says “I am” he may be not only assenting, but claiming the name of God for himself. But even if you dismiss that, Jesus throughout the Gospel takes it upon himself to forgive the sins of others, which only God can do. He was accused and tried by the Jews for blasphemy, for making himself equal to God. So at least they understood him to be claiming that he was divine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-jesus-say-he-was-the-son-of-god/817624.md?page=5)