# Did Joan of Arc Actually Exist?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [November 8, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071 "2003-11-08T14:19:39Z")
**Posts on this page:** 13
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071/21 "2003-11-09T04:13:54Z")
CIV III has her in four different guises.
In Ancient times she’s wearing animal skins with a rawhide helmet.
In Medieval times she’s wearing plate armor (her “proper” time period).
In Industrial times she’s wearing a 19th-century military tunic with gold piping and brass buttons all over the place.
In Modern times her guise is “G.I. Joan” with shaven head and t-shirt that says “_ARMÉE_.”
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### Author:  [@Forbin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Forbin)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071/22 "2003-11-09T04:49:45Z")
Only on the internet, and among geeks, would a discussion of Joan of Arc’s beauty take place.
I’m not laughing at you, I’m laughing with you.
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### Author:  [@Peanuthead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanuthead)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2003, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071/23 "2003-11-09T08:47:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \*
> \*\*No mention of her cousin, Noah of Ark? \*\*
And what about her uncle **Bubba of Arkansas**?😃
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071/24 "2003-11-09T14:00:54Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by BrainGlutton \*
> **Unless perhaps her family was a bit more prosperous than the movies usually imply, and he wanted to marry her for her money/lands**
AFAIK, her family was _relatively_ well-off (by comparison with peasants of this time and place).
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### Author:  [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071/25 "2003-11-09T14:14:46Z")
Riddle:
What was Joan of Arc made of?
Hint:
The riddle truly works if you hear it and not read it.
Answer:
Joan of Arc was [“Maid of Orleans.”](http://womenshistory.about.com/library/prm/blmaidoforleans1.htm) (A popular nickname she has.)
Peace.
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### Author:  [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2003, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071/26 "2003-11-09T15:10:43Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lissa \*
> \*\*We know she was a virgin because the Inquisitional court had her examined.
>
> Witches, it was believed, had sexual intercourse with Satan, and virgins were considered somewhat less likely to be witches. Being a virgin wouldn’t save Joan from charges of witchcraft, but _not_ being one might have made her look more guilty.
>
> Of course, Joan’s sentance was a foregone conclusion, but the court felt it necessary to go through the motions. Joan was examined by midwives on two occasions, first on the French king’s behest to determine if Joan was just a heretical nutcase or possibly sent by God, and later by the court which executed her. \*\*
I’ve read that it’s extremely difficult to determine virginity by physical inspection alone, and that the inspectors tended to err on the side of presuming someone was indeed a virgin if there was any doubt. (It should be noted, however, that I came across this tidbit in a biography of Frances Howard, who underwent a similar inspection while seeking a divorce from the Earl of Essex on the grounds of nonconsummation; the midwives in this case would have been under considerable political pressure to find that she _was_ a virgin. It sounds like the pressure in Joan’s case would have gone in the opposite direction.)
BTW, Frances Howard WAS hot, and scandal followed her wherever she went. It’s worth looking her up if you’re looking for some interesting historical gossip.
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### Author:  [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071/27 "2003-11-09T23:16:36Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine \*
> **It sounds like the pressure in Joan’s case would have gone in the opposite direction.**
Joan’s first trial was sort of a “friendly” trial. She wasn’t at risk at this time of being harmed by the court.
The powers that be were a bit perplexed by Joan, and so the court examined her to see what kind of girl she really was. The French king, though recieving benefits from her actions, was a bit leery of her. As shaky as his claim to the throne was at the time, he didn’t want to appear to support someone who might be a lunatic or counterfeit saint. The court was to determine if Joan was a real Christian (in line with the teachings of the Church.)
Apparently, Joan’s answers to her interviewers’ questions were amazingly wise for a peasant girl with no theological training. While they weren’t quite ready to proclaim that she was sent by God, Joan appeared to be a “good girl” and not a heretic.
The second trial was all about politics. The last thing the English wanted was evidence that God might be on the side of the French. To them, the idea was perposterous. Joan _must_ be a heretic.
Unfortunately, Joan wasn’t an easy kill. She was an intelligent girl, verbally adept and quick on her feet. Even when the Inquisitors tried to trick her, Joan managed to say the correct thing. One famous example is a question they asked her: Was she in God’s grace? If she said yes, they would have accused her of claiming that she knew the mind of God, and if she said no, they would have used it as “proof” that she knew she was a heretic. Joan’s reply was artful. She said simply that if she was not, she hoped God would bring her to his grace, and if she was already, that He would keep her there.
You are right that it would have been in their best interests if Joan was not a virgin, and that it’s difficult to tell for certain visually. (One of my books adresses this, I believe. I’ll have to look tonight. The author states that Joan must have had an unusually thick hymen.)
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### Author:  [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071/28 "2003-11-09T23:53:05Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by BrainGlutton \*
> Is it true Joan was a **defendant** in a breach-of-promise suit brought by a young man in her village?
Don’t know anything about a specific record from a lawsuit, but a possible reference did come up in the cross-examination of her by La Fontaine at the trial. The issue was tied up with her leaving home, particularly since this could be seen as her disobeying her parents and hence violating the fourth commandment. This decision was also tied to the question of when “the voices” started. Her testimony is summarised by the trial records thus:
> [@](#):
>
> Her mother and father took great pains to keep her and held her in great subjection; and she obeyed them in everything, except in the case at Toul about the marriage.
(Quoted in _Joan of Arc_ by Marina Warner, 1981; Vintage, 1991, p154.) Toul is the nearest largish town to Domremy. It’s quite possible that a whole tradition about a lawsuit has been spun out of this reference.
The general assumption is that it was going to be an arranged marriage rather than a love match. More controversial is the issue of whether this was enough explanation for one of the parties doing a runner. And then saying that God told her to because she had to save France.
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### Author:  [@slipster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slipster)
#### Post date: [November 11, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071/29 "2003-11-11T15:00:35Z")
Joan of Arc is also remarkable as an early instance of a celebrity who was widely rumored to have not really died. Following her reported death there were highly publicized instances of people claiming to have seen or even spoken to her, much in the manner of John Dillinger, James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, John Kennedy, Jim Morrison, Elvis Presley, etc.
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### Author:  [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)
#### Post date: [November 11, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071/30 "2003-11-11T15:18:50Z")
To add to what **slipster** said:
Positive identification of any person at the time was nearly impossible. No one had a photo ID, after all, and most people wouldn’t have known what the “celebrity” really looked like. (Paintings, and books were confined to the rich.) It was remarkably easy to change your identity because unless someone knew you, there was little way to prove otherwise.
All throughout history, royal pretenders were a pain in the collective asses of Kings and Queens. Several people claimed to be the Princes in the Tower who were killed during the reign of Richard III, for example. If a prince died, you could lay money that in a few months, there’d be someone claiming his identity, telling the “miraculous” tale of his escape to anyone who would listen.
Some pretenders went to foreign courts where they were treated as royalty. (In a couple of cases, it was politically expedient at least to pretend to believe in the fake royal in order to keep the real King or Queen on their toes.)
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### Author:  [@hyjyljyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hyjyljyj)
#### Post date: [November 11, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071/31 "2003-11-11T15:27:55Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by slipster \*
> \*\*Joan of Arc is also remarkable as an early instance of a celebrity who was widely rumored to have not really died. Following her reported death there were highly publicized instances of people claiming to have seen or even spoken to her, much in the manner of John Dillinger, James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, John Kennedy, Jim Morrison, Elvis Presley, etc. \*\*
…Osama bin Laden…
* * *
Oh, and the “hot” remark from the first reply to the OP was just a mediocre pun. I thought everyone would get it…Joan of Arc…burned at the stake…hot…never mind. Sorry. Plus she was really hot for God, with his voice talking to her in her head, giving her the nerve to lead her army to victory at Orleans as a 17-year-old girl.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)
#### Post date: [November 11, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071/32 "2003-11-11T18:12:30Z")
[quote]
_Originally posetd by hyjyljyj_Plus she was really hot for God, with his voice talking to her in her head, giving her the nerve to lead her army to victory at Orleans as a 17-year-old girl.
[quote]
Joan never claimed to hear the voice of God. Her voices were said to be those of St. Catherine and St. Michael.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)
#### Post date: [November 11, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-joan-of-arc-actually-exist/212071/33 "2003-11-11T18:19:43Z")
Damned coding.
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