# Did Karl Rove out the CIA Agent? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 2, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791 "2005-07-02T03:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/381 "2005-07-13T13:35:28Z")
Respectfully disagree. The electorate is split so evenly, even the slightest change is enough to wrest the levers of power from the Forces of Darkness. If only 1 out of 10 Republican voters had simply stayed home last time, we would have prevailed. Why risk the long bomb when you can short run, short pass, first down? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/382 "2005-07-13T14:03:51Z")
And if an extra 1/10th had come out where would you be? The other fatal error is projection. Too easily you’ve assumed that supporters of the current adminsitration would find Mr Rove’s behaviour distasteful. Whereas all the evidence counter-indicates that. The lower, more foul the conduct, the more energised in the support are the main consituency. This is the real America. Your ill-favoured disposition to behaviour on account of mere illegality, spite and malice is pure un-Americanism. The choices are get with the program or subsist a perpetual minority. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/383 "2005-07-13T14:07:47Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Unless the TV is shouting “Bush man guilty of treason” this will all go nowhere. Well, Henry Waxman (my congressman … swoon!) already called Rove a traitor. The papers carried that. This is a bigger story than the Supreme Court fight. The White House just pissed off the entire Washington press corps. They’re not going to let it go until they get some answers. And the RNC talking points are a pretty transparent film of lies and misdirection – which just digs the hole deeper and deeper. I don’t think its possible for the White House to muddy the waters sufficiently on this one. The core story is too simple: **Karl Rove blew the cover of a secret agent.** And the more smoke the Republican blow, the guiltier they look. If we’re lucky we’ll get several months of increasingly bizarre right-wing spin as more and more of the facts of this nasty case are dragged out into the light of day. If Bush were a mensch he could end this now, but since he’s a small-minded little creep who puts loyalty to his cronies ahead of duty to his country, he’ll drag it out to the bitter end, and drag himself down in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/384 "2005-07-13T14:20:13Z")
I’m certainly at the point myself of wanting some clear answers. If Rove did not do what the story seems to suggest, I’d like to hear a clear and unequivocal denial. I recognize that this forces Rove to vitiate his constitutional rights. As accused of a crime, he certainly has the right to remain silent. As a public servant, however, he has an obligation to either resign, and then exercise his rights as a citizen, or go above and beyond and respond in detail to the charges. Rove should either resign or start talking details. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/385 "2005-07-13T14:29:30Z")
I want answers as well. Rove’s attorney asserts in [this interview](http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200507121626.asp) that he has been asked to remain quiet about the case by the prosecutor investigating the leak. I’m far more interested in getting to the bottom of the story than the political problems of any specific people in the administration. I’m inclined to give Fitzgerald room to conduct his inquiry as he sees fit. At the end of all this, someone, either in the administration or in the press, outed a CIA agent. That person should pay an appropriate penalty. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/386 "2005-07-13T14:33:17Z")
I am wholly in accord with friend **Bricker’s** view on the matter. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to go lie down for a while. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/387 "2005-07-13T14:39:03Z")
Which view is that? His view of just a few days ago, that Rove didn’t do anything criminal, or the new, improved version right above? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/388 "2005-07-13T14:42:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Which view is that? His view of just a few days ago, that Rove didn’t do anything criminal, or the new, improved version right above? Now, now, let’s not go there. Let’s not try to scotch tape the scales back over any eyes that they might be falling from. (Hey, I’m as skeptical as anyone would be, but we do want to shape others’ behavior towards the positive, don’t we?) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/389 "2005-07-13T14:48:15Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > Apparently, [some people think Karl Rove should get a medal for this](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162335,00.html). I need to stop reading this guy’s columns, it’s not good for my blood pressure. Well, those people can go to hell too. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/390 "2005-07-13T14:52:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m certainly at the point myself of wanting some clear answers. If Rove did not do what the story seems to suggest, I’d like to hear a clear and unequivocal denial. > > I recognize that this forces Rove to vitiate his constitutional rights. As accused of a crime, he certainly has the right to remain silent. As a public servant, however, he has an obligation to either resign, and then exercise his rights as a citizen, or go above and beyond and respond in detail to the charges. > > Rove should either resign or start talking details. You’re damn right. Someone needs to start answering questions, instead of repeating the same old partriotic bullshit over and over. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/391 "2005-07-13T14:53:18Z")
I don’t think someone in the press can be guilty of revealing a covert agent’s status. A member of the press can _publish_ the information. That’s not a crime. _But someone in the government had to pass the information to them._\* When ordered to reveal the source by a court, a reporter who refuses can consequently be penalized (as were Miller and Cooper). The govvie who passed the information could be someone not technically ‘in the administration’ (e.g., a civil servant in the CIA), but signs are definitely not pointing there. IANAL – **Bricker** , or others, correct me if this is wrong. \*Assuming the reporter didn’t obtain the information illegally. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > At the end of all this, someone, either in the administration or in the press, outed a CIA agent. That person should pay an appropriate penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/392 "2005-07-13T14:57:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Which view is that? His view of just a few days ago, that Rove didn’t do anything criminal, or the new, improved version right above? In what specific way are my earlier posts in conflict with the views I expressed above? Note that it’s YOUR read that I said Rove didn’t do anything criminal. My earlier posts just pointed out that IF the President authorized the leak, THEN Rove didn’t do anything criminal. That was true then, is true now, and will be true tomorrow. Prior to this, the allegations of wrongdoing against Rove were inchoate, and related primarily to speculations about what he told the grand jury. At that point, the speculation was about perjury. In fact, my first post in this thread discusses the need to vigorously prosecute a perjurer in this situation. Now, allegations involving Rove had taken a much clearer shape - so much so that as a public employee, I contend he has a duty to respond, unless such response would harm his own constitutional rights. If that is the case, then his duty as a public servant conflict with his personal exercise of rights, and he should resign to remove that conflict. Nothing I said earlier conflicts with anything I’m saying now. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/393 "2005-07-13T14:59:45Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > You’re damn right. Someone needs to start answering questions, instead of repeating the same old partriotic bullshit over and over. Well, actually, I said that he should either resign OR start answering questions. He has just as much right to avoid self-incrimination as the next guy; the Fifth Amendment doesn’t halt at Karl Rove’s front lawn. My point is that as a public servant, he owes answers. He can solve that dilemma two ways: start talking, or stop being a public servant. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/394 "2005-07-13T15:01:01Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > The lower, more foul the conduct, the more energised in the support are the main consituency. This is the real America. Your ill-favoured disposition to behaviour on account of mere illegality, spite and malice is pure un-Americanism. > > The choices are get with the program or subsist a perpetual minority. Exactly. Look at a hate merchant such as Sean Hannity. Remember the title of his book? _Deliver Us from Evil: Defeating Terrorism, Despotism, and Liberalism_. Now, if the current admin does something nasty to a terrorist are their supporters going to complain? Now, if the current admin does something nasty to a despot are their supporters going to complain? Do I really need to finish the example for you? Your supposed “drip drip” theory has been proven wrong for five years now, **luci**. Even with some of the worst numbers in history they still come out winning. You can’t change the mind of a true believer. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/395 "2005-07-13T15:03:30Z")
> [@F. U. Shakespeare](#): > > I don’t think someone in the press can be guilty of revealing a covert agent’s status. > > A member of the press can _publish_ the information. That’s not a crime. \* From the U.S. Code: > [@](#): > > TITLE 50 \> CHAPTER 15 \> SUBCHAPTER IV > > § 421. Protection of identities of certain United States undercover intelligence officers, agents, informants, and sources > > Release date: 2005-03-17 > > (a) Disclosure of information by persons having or having had access to classified information that identifies covert agent Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified information that identifies a covert agent, intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both. > > (b) Disclosure of information by persons who learn identity of covert agents as result of having access to classified information Whoever, as a result of having authorized access to classified information, learns the identify of a covert agent and intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. > > © Disclosure of information by persons in course of pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents Whoever, in the course of a pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents and with reason to believe that such activities would impair or impede the foreign intelligence activities of the United States, discloses any information that identifies an individual as a covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such individual and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such individual’s classified intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both. > > (d) Imposition of consecutive sentences A term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be consecutive to any other sentence of imprisonment. I didn’t see anything in there about a press exemption. Merely being a journalist doesn’t give you free reign to do or publish what you will, you know. Laws apply to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/396 "2005-07-13T15:04:38Z")
Despair is not an option. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/397 "2005-07-13T15:12:48Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I didn’t see anything in there about a press exemption. > [@](#): > > Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified information that identifies a covert agent What journalists have or have had authorized access to classified information? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Ptolemais](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@Ptolemais](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptolemais)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/398 "2005-07-13T15:18:33Z")
Judith Miller is the Leak. [http://corner.nationalreview.com/05\_07\_10\_corner-archive.asp#069334](http://corner.nationalreview.com/05_07_10_corner-archive.asp#069334) Sorry, guys. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/399 "2005-07-13T15:21:39Z")
Thank you for the reference. I will now clarify/correct my point: By my read, all of the regulations in your cite apply to people who have authorized access. I am assuming that none of the reporters involved (Novak, Miller and Cooper) had authorized access to the classified information on Valerie Plame’s status as a covert agent (please correct me if there are any counterindications of this). On preview, what **LHoD** said. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > From the U.S. Code: > > I didn’t see anything in there about a press exemption. > > Merely being a journalist doesn’t give you free reign to do or publish what you will, you know. Laws apply to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/400 "2005-07-13T15:44:13Z")
> [@Ptolemais](#): > > Judith Miller is the Leak. > > [http://corner.nationalreview.com/05\_07\_10\_corner-archive.asp#069334](http://corner.nationalreview.com/05_07_10_corner-archive.asp#069334) > > Sorry, guys. How can that be? She may have known about Plame before Rove or whoever, but unless the government is giving the press top security clearances I don’t see how she could possibly be the leak. If she’s the primary source for all this, then whoever told _her_ is the leak. Besides, that article has too many “what ifs” to be remotely definitive. It’s days-old speculations are nothing new. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791.md?page=21)