# Did Karl Rove out the CIA Agent? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 2, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791 "2005-07-02T03:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/441 "2005-07-13T22:31:22Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > Wilson’s offense was one of diminishing the majesty of the king (there is a phrase in French for this but I can’t pronounce it or spell it) or contemplating the death of the king. _lese majeste_, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/442 "2005-07-13T22:32:42Z")
Sorry, **Spav** , but if I don’t joke, I choke. I would like to stay sane and sober, but if I have to choose, I will… ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/443 "2005-07-13T22:34:35Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > I still anticipate that Good Soldier Powell will sooner of later reach the end of his tether. When he starts talking there will be hell to pay. Good soldier my ass, more like lying scumsucking lap dog toady. If he starts talking I expect it will be along the lines of his U.N. speech. See there are these trucks, see? They are factories for chemical weapons, see? Saddam has WMD, see? Trust me, I am dignified. I won’t come in your mouth. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/444 "2005-07-13T23:48:07Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > An interesting [letter to Salon](http://www.salon.com/news/letters/2005/07/13/rove/index.html):Any of our legally-minded Dopers care to comment on this possibility? From [http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/2003/10/100303.html](http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/2003/10/100303.html) But does the 1917 Espionage Act “forbid the unauthorized release of classified information”? Not exactly. What it does do is prohibit disclosure of several narrowly defined categories of information – having to do with codes, ciphers, and communications intelligence. It does not mention intelligence identities or many other diverse forms of classified information. See 18 USC 798 on “Disclosure of classified information” here: ``` http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/798.html ``` The Espionage Act also prohibits under certain conditions the unauthorized disclosure of “defense information,” which includes much, but far from all classified information. The one and only conviction of a leaker [of classified information] to the media, Samuel L. Morison, resulted from the compromise of such “defense information.” See 18 USC 793 on “Gathering, Transmitting, or Losing Defense Information” here: ``` http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/793.html ``` As previously noted, Congress enacted a general provision to criminalize all leaks of any type of classified information in 2000, precisely because such a prohibition did not exist, notwithstanding the Morison precedent. But President Clinton vetoed it on November 4, 2000: ``` http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2000/11/wh110400.html ``` Consequently, it seems clear, there is no universal statutory prohibition in the Espionage Act or any other statute that “forbids the unauthorized release of classified information.” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/445 "2005-07-13T23:50:58Z")
In other words, there’s “no controlling legal authority.” It’s nice to see that IOKIARDI… ---
**Author:** ![elelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@elelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elelle)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/446 "2005-07-13T23:54:42Z")
I’ve tried to be thorough in reading this thread, thank y’all, it’s helped me understand this travesty more than the news media. (Thanks to Bricker, too, who helps me understand the point-by-point of legal specifics. I may not agree with him, but he lets me see a different approach, and I appreciate that.) So, this point may have been brought up, but, if so, it didn’t stick with me, so would bear repeating: In outing Valerie Plame, wasn’t her employer, Brewster, Jennings and Associates, a CIA front company, also outted? This seems like a much more serious crime in terms of treason charges. My understanding is that Brewster, Jennings (no connection to the founder of Mobil Oil of the same name), is a CIA network tracking WMD’s. To expose that network would seem to really put this country at peril. Anyone know what’s going on from this angle? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/447 "2005-07-14T01:07:23Z")
> [@elelle](#): > > I’ve tried to be thorough in reading this thread, thank y’all, it’s helped me understand this travesty more than the news media. (Thanks to Bricker, too, who helps me understand the point-by-point of legal specifics. I may not agree with him, but he lets me see a different approach, and I appreciate that.) > > So, this point may have been brought up, but, if so, it didn’t stick with me, so would bear repeating: > > In outing Valerie Plame, wasn’t her employer, Brewster, Jennings and Associates, a CIA front company, also outted? This seems like a much more serious crime in terms of treason charges. My understanding is that Brewster, Jennings (no connection to the founder of Mobil Oil of the same name), is a CIA network tracking WMD’s. To expose that network would seem to really put this country at peril. Anyone know what’s going on from this angle? I’ve wondered about this myself. My first guess is that it’ll hard to get a list of B&J’s “employees.” So the effects may not become public for quite some time. Somewhere, (Og help me b’cuz I don’t remember where, so no citation) I remember reading something or hearing something that gave me the impression that she worked academia in foreign countries. Worked them in the sense that she tried to find out about what kinds of research were going on. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/448 "2005-07-14T01:26:55Z")
> [@](#): > > In outing Valerie Plame, wasn’t her employer, Brewster, Jennings and Associates, a CIA front company, also outted? Yes; a significant amount of CIA work was compromised, hence their irritation. My understanding (from one of the dozens of articles I’ve read about this) is that BJ&A was not an elaborately constructed front; it depended largely on the fact that no one was looking at it too closely. This is probably true of most intelligence operations–they’re just as elaborate as they need to be. Needless to say, it’s all over now. I had hoped that we wouldn’t have any Dopers gullible enough to fall for the ridiculous GOP talking points on this, but **Psycho Pirate** shows us in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=325311) that there’s no Kool-Aid he won’t drink: > [@](#): > > It was pretty much common knowledge to Washington Insiders, anyway. Her husband “outed” her on her website before Rove allegedly “leaked” her identity. > > _Yawn_… It is, indeed, taking longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/449 "2005-07-14T01:33:07Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > _lese majeste_, I believe. Bingo! Now, let’s hear you pronounce it. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/450 "2005-07-14T01:36:47Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > Bingo! Now, let’s hear you pronounce it. [Here ya go!](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lese%20majesty) [sub]Note alternative spelling.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/451 "2005-07-14T01:36:57Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > And the RNC talking points are a pretty transparent film of lies and misdirection – which just digs the hole deeper and deeper. Yep, and I bet if before the last election campaign I’d asked you if it was completely clear whether Bush or Kerry had the most valorous military record you’d have suggested it was Kerry, and that even Bush supporters could never be made to believe any different. > [@Ptolemais](#): > > But it makes little sense…unless you assume she is the Leak. An assumption which, were you to make it, would make you look like a horse’s ass for a reason so obvious that I can’t be bothered typing it because if you had the brains to understand it, you’d not need to be told. And besides which you’ve been told already. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/452 "2005-07-14T01:40:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Reeder** and me are just about the only out and about lefty-radicals here Ahem. [sub]I just gotta keep my big mouth shut about politics and economics ‘cause I’m a moderator. Which I believe **Tuba** made me in order to keep me from bringing the Truth to th’ People.[/sub] – Uke, Hobohemian ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/453 "2005-07-14T03:11:49Z")
For the record, it was not I who compromised **Ike’s** covert status as a revolutionary cadre. So I don’t expect to be getting any shit from the Central Committee! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/454 "2005-07-14T12:03:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > For the record, it was not I who compromised **Ike’s** covert status as a revolutionary cadre. So I don’t expect to be getting any shit from the Central Committee! Eisenhower was a COMMIE??? ::whispers:: I KNEW it! ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/455 "2005-07-14T12:54:36Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Eisenhower was a COMMIE??? > > ::whispers:: I KNEW it! Wow. I just Googled and read Eisenhower’s farewell speech so I could add a wisecrack, and now I don’t feel like smartassing. Here’s a bit: > [@](#): > > This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence – economic, political, even spiritual – is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. > > In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. Read [the whole thing](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ike.htm) – it majorly revamped my view of Ike. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/456 "2005-07-14T13:08:33Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Wow. I just Googled and read Eisenhower’s farewell speech so I could add a wisecrack, and now I don’t feel like smartassing. Here’s a bit: Read [the whole thing](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ike.htm) – it majorly revamped my view of Ike. Yeah, I’m familiar with that. I’m afraid that Dick Chaney and Halliburton have proven him right. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/457 "2005-07-14T13:12:26Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Read [the whole thing](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ike.htm) – it majorly revamped my view of Ike. The Birchers were decades ahead of the American right wing…in an era when most Republicans were like Ike, they wanted him impeached as a communist. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/458 "2005-07-14T13:34:21Z")
Not much coverage of the Rove thingy in the newspapers… it should be at least front page material IMO. They are about to cut Bush’s right arm ! (or his brain some say) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/459 "2005-07-14T13:35:45Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Not much coverage of the Rove thingy in the newspapers… it should be at least front page material IMO. Somewhere around page 8 or 10 of The Denver Post this morning. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/460 "2005-07-14T15:29:47Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Not much coverage of the Rove thingy in the newspapers… it should be at least front page material IMO. They are about to cut Bush’s right arm ! (or his brain some say) I can see this going off the front pages (or the radar altogether) until Fitzgerald surfaces, or some other big announcement is made. Besides the Miller jailing, Cooper email, and the subsequent WH stonewalling there hasn’t been anything terribly newsworthy the past couple days. I mean “White House Stonewalls for Third Straight Day” and “Republican Politicians lash out at Democratic Politicians for Being Politicians” isn’t exactly front page stuff. I do welcome surprises, however. Something may come out of Cooper’s testimony. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791.md?page=24)