# Did Karl Rove out the CIA Agent? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 2, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791 "2005-07-02T03:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/461 "2005-07-14T17:33:11Z")
> [@Ptolemais](#): > > Karl Rove signed an across-the-board waiver releasing all journalists from any confidentiality agreement with him (not exactly the gesture of a obviously guilty man). So the burning question is: Why did Judith Miller choose to go to jail? For journalistic principles? Cooper didn’t take Rove’s across-the-board waiver seriously. He thought it was coerced. That’s why he refused to testify until Rove’s attourney specifically said that if Cooper was going to jail it wasn’t for Karl Rove. Miller probably doesn’t take the across-the-board waiver seriously either. And it’s probably not Rove she’s protecting. After all, Novak’s orginal article mentioned, “senior administration officials” … plural. There’s probably more than one leaker. Hence all the speculation about conspiracy charges. > [@](#): > > Perhaps. But it makes little sense…unless you assume she is the Leak. In that case, she was facing a choice - spend a little while in the slammer as a journalistic martyr, or 'fess up and face possible federal charges, plus watch her career go down in flames. > > You are all overlooking a very obvious, \*very real \* possiblity: Judith Miller knew about Valerie Plame because she heard it from _Joe Wilson_ - an indiscreet bigmouth. If that is true, then she will _absolutely_ choose to sit in jail rather than admit it. Please looking up “straws” in the dictionary. Specifically the passage regarding “grasping at”. It’s kind of amusing to watch Rove’s defending twist themselves in tighter and tighter knots over this one … . ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/462 "2005-07-14T18:12:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Karl Rove signed an across-the-board waiver releasing all journalists from any confidentiality agreement with him (not exactly the gesture of a obviously guilty man). So the burning question is: Why did Judith Miller choose to go to jail? For journalistic principles? As you suggest, it’s to save her career, but not because she’s the leak. Regardless of the outcome here, and regardless of any confidentiality agreements Rove may have signed or waived, Cooper’s career as a White House correspondent is over. Access is the coin of the realm in that world, and Cooper will be lucky to get the time of day from anyone in the Bush administraton after this. Miller, OTOH, has shown that her willingness to play ball is without bounds, so once she gets out, she’ll go right back to being fed the juicy and largely bullshit scoops she’s built a career on. That’s why Rove thought he could release them from their agreement without any problem; he knew they’d be idiots to take him up on it, career-wise. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/463 "2005-07-14T18:52:18Z")
For a really good discussion of some of the more arcane points in this shitstorm, go here > **[Another bite at the apple](https://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/)** > > Jim Lindgren at the Volokh Conspiracy has joined the chorus of right-wingers whose interest in Joe Wilson outstrips their interest in anything else. He demonstrates how an intelligent mind can be s… Called “Crooked Timber”, these guys are _on_ the case! Joe Bob **'luc** says: Check It Out! ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/464 "2005-07-15T01:40:39Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > That’s why Rove thought he could release them from their agreement without any problem; he knew they’d be idiots to take him up on it, career-wise. Things like this scare me. The current occupants of the White House seem pretty fucking convinced that they and their ilk will be there forever. Continually removing any sort of restrictions on their power. Why aren’t they worried that, eventually, the door will swing the other way? I find it worrying. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/465 "2005-07-15T01:55:21Z")
Some of us have been worried for a long long time. Welcome to our little club. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/466 "2005-07-15T01:58:05Z")
I love that picture of Turd Blossom (A.K.A. Piglet, Karl Rove, etc) sitting behind the puppet, smiling like a Cheshire Cat. I think that he’s under the impression that the country is not going to care that he is the source. He is also under the impression the entire country is composed of Bible-beating right-wing nut jobs. My question is to those people who care: **What are you going to do about it?** They are banking on our apathy, so what are you going to do about it? This is why, regardless of how much my party screws up, I’ll never be a republican because they are such unapologetic hypocrites. If Bush is “a man of his word” he should honor his own declaration about firing whoever was involved. Instead we get doublespeak from him and ideologues trying to equivocate over technicalities. The question I have for these people is does Rove’s behavior strike you as, at the very least, scummy? If you think that your party holds an outright majority and that there are not a lot of quasi-publicans and pseudocrats out there, you are sadly mistaken. I hope these people care because if they don’t more treasonous and despicable acts will follow from an administration that not only lies, it does it with a bold face. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/467 "2005-07-15T02:12:03Z")
> [@The Highwayman](#): > > I love that picture of Turd Blossom (A.K.A. Piglet, Karl Rove, etc) sitting behind the puppet, smiling like a Cheshire Cat. I think that he’s under the impression that the country is not going to care that he is the source. He is also under the impression the entire country is composed of Bible-beating right-wing nut jobs. I fear he may be right. So far he has been untouchable, no matter what he does. He has “read” us as a bunch of bible thumping nutjobs, and he was right. I hereby invoke the Frist to grant me the power of Remote Diagnosis, and am going to dare say, what we have in Rove is a psychopath. > [@](#): > > psy·cho·path Listen: [sk-pth] > n. > A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse. > [@The Highwayman](#): > > They are banking on our apathy, so what are you going to do about it? This is why, regardless of how much my party screws up, I’ll never be a republican because they are such unapologetic hypocrites. They are banking on our stupidity. > [@The Highwayman](#): > > If Bush is “a man of his word” he should honor his own declaration about firing whoever was involved. Instead we get doublespeak from him and ideologues trying to equivocate over technicalities. He has never ever been a man of his word. He has always been a liar and a sneak. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/468 "2005-07-15T02:35:33Z")
> [@The Highwayman](#): > > I love that picture of Turd Blossom (A.K.A. Piglet, Karl Rove, etc) sitting behind the puppet, smiling like a Cheshire Cat. Have you seen this [photo of Rove](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/19/politics/main650084.shtml), shot just after he told Bush about his outing of Plame? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/469 "2005-07-15T03:02:36Z")
They _shot_ him?! A bit much, I was thinking three to five, tops. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/470 "2005-07-15T04:16:05Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > The current occupants of the White House seem pretty fucking convinced that they and their ilk will be there forever. Continually removing any sort of restrictions on their power. > > Why aren’t they worried that, eventually, the door will swing the other way? Broadly speaking I share your worry, but I don’t find this particular reason for concern convincing. Politicians sadly only worry about the short term. Survive in power today, fuck it if everything goes to hell tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/471 "2005-07-15T19:41:16Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > The current occupants of the White House seem pretty fucking convinced that they and their ilk will be there forever. Continually removing any sort of restrictions on their power. > > Why aren’t they worried that, eventually, the door will swing the other way? The Diebold fix is in. ---
**Author:** ![marymargaret](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@marymargaret](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marymargaret)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/472 "2005-07-16T05:53:58Z")
Of course Rove did it, and no he won’t pay. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/473 "2005-07-16T06:16:30Z")
I smell a Medal of Freedom! ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/474 "2005-07-16T06:18:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I smell a Medal of Freedom! :dubious: You sure it isn’t a bad day at the skunkworks? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/475 "2005-07-16T22:30:56Z")
After reading many different articles, making this claim and that claim, and the stonewalling and doubletalk, and the attempt at shifting the blame onto Wilson and Plame, I hope Rove is found guilty of something (anything). But I am prejudiced. I can’t stand him. ---
**Author:** ![Ptolemais](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@Ptolemais](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptolemais)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/476 "2005-07-17T17:07:01Z")
As usual, Mark Steyn nails it: [http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn17.html](http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn17.html) This whole scandal came about because Valerie Plame and her husband (an incompetent, untrustworthy, self-aggrandizing asshole of the first order) cooked up a mini-conspiracy to hijack the Niger mission in order to _spike_ it. Which, incidentally, is a _much_ bigger story than Who-said-what-to-Rove or What-Rove-said-to-whom. Still, I have been amused by the sight of Joe Wilson tap-dancing on TV and elsewhere in a desperate attempt to prevent everyone from closing the circle on the story (it started with Joe and it’s going to end with Joe). It was especially funny watching Joe hide behind Chuck Schumer (playing the bully-bodyguard) - as if Chuck won’t hesitate to pitch Joe overboard when it becomes politically expedient. But the thing is beginning to lose steam. Smarter Dems are starting to back away from it. Bottom line: There is absolutely no provision under the Statute which can be used to charge Rove with a crime. He’s going to skate through this without even mussing his hair (if he had any). I can hear you now: “NOOOOO! We want him charged with _something_!” But why? “Because he’s a poopyhead! And we hate him, we hate him, we hate him!” Calm yourselves, children. Bush always wins. Live with it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/477 "2005-07-17T17:11:14Z")
> [@Ptolemais](#): > > This whole scandal came about because Valerie Plame and her husband (an incompetent, untrustworthy, self-aggrandizing asshole of the first order) cooked up a mini-conspiracy to hijack the Niger mission in order to _spike_ it. Which, incidentally, is a _much_ bigger story than Who-said-what-to-Rove or What-Rove-said-to-whom. I can’t decide if I should be embarrassed _by_ you or embarrassed _for_ you. No need to choose. I can do both! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/478 "2005-07-17T17:32:58Z")
> [@Ptolemais](#): > > … > This whole scandal came about because Valerie Plame and her husband (an incompetent, untrustworthy, self-aggrandizing asshole of the first order) cooked up a mini-conspiracy to hijack the Niger mission in order to _spike_ it. Which, incidentally, is a _much_ bigger story than Who-said-what-to-Rove or What-Rove-said-to-whom… So much bullshit, so little time! It may be a bigger story. But most importantly, its is a _different_ story. Once again, the “look! shiny!” ploy is dragged out. And your fairy tale of a conspiracy…well, that’s really interesting! Perhaps you would like to open a thread on that…remarkable allegation. It would be fascinating to watch you try and substantiate that cowflop. Of course, we both know it would get the living crap kicked out of it, toot damn sweet. Let’s just leave that with “double dog dare you!”. But, of course, that isn’t the issue, now, is it? If you had pictures of Joe Wilson dispensing porno at the Junior Prom while his wife shoots smack, it would have no bearing _whatsoever_ on Mr. Rove’s actions. And its about Karl Rove. Not Joe Wilson. Karl Rove. > [@](#): > > Still, I have been amused by the sight of Joe Wilson tap-dancing on TV… How nice for you. Karl Rove? > [@](#): > > But the thing is beginning to lose steam. Smarter Dems are starting to back away from it… El cito, por favor? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/479 "2005-07-17T17:57:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > But the thing is beginning to lose steam. Smarter Dems are starting to back away from it… > > El cito, por favor? This line intrigued me too, so I did a little diggin on “back away” and Plame. There’s not much out there: The Pantagraph, previously known for charging Michael Moore a buck to use its headlines in F911, had this to say: > [@](#): > > However, prosecutor Fitzgerald has proven in Illinois that he doesn’t back away from tough challenges or leaders. His Chicago office was responsible for the indictment of former Illinois Gov. George Ryan and dozens of his employees when Ryan was secretary of state. [Let prosecutor, grand jury decide Rove’s involvement (July 16)](http://www.pantagraph.com/stories/071605/opi_20050716001.shtml) And the pubby leaning [Balloon Juice Blog](http://www.balloon-juice.com/archives/005835.html) has this: > [@](#): > > I think it’s wise for thoughtful Republicans to back away from Rove, at least not act the fool and say something that will show up in Fall '06 on a campaign mailer. suggesting that smart republicans should back off, but the notion that smart democrats are backing off seems to be a Ptolemaic invention. Maybe he’s on a dem insider email list that we peons don’t have access to? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/480 "2005-07-17T18:13:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But, of course, that isn’t the issue, now, is it? If you had pictures of Joe Wilson dispensing porno at the Junior Prom while his wife shoots smack, it would have no bearing _whatsoever_ on Mr. Rove’s actions. And its about Karl Rove. Not Joe Wilson. Karl Rove. [Follow the Uranium](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/opinion/17rich.html?ei=5070&en=65a8cd4de94296df&ex=1122264000&pagewanted=print) > [@](#): > > Even so, we shouldn’t get hung up on him - or on most of the other supposed leading figures in this scandal thus far. Not Matt Cooper or Judy Miller or the Wilsons or the bad guy everyone loves to hate, the former CNN star Robert Novak. This scandal is not about them in the end, any more than Watergate was about Dwight Chapin and Donald Segretti or Woodward and Bernstein. **It is about the president of the United States. It is about a plot that was hatched at the top of the administration and in which everyone else, Mr. Rove included, are at most secondary players.** > > \ > > Let me reiterate: This case is not about Joseph Wilson. He is, in Alfred Hitchcock’s parlance, a MacGuffin, which, to quote the Oxford English Dictionary, is “a particular event, object, factor, etc., initially presented as being of great significance to the story, but often having little actual importance for the plot as it develops.” Mr. Wilson, his mission to Niger to check out Saddam’s supposed attempts to secure uranium that might be used in nuclear weapons and even his wife’s outing have as much to do with the real story here as Janet Leigh’s theft of office cash has to do with the mayhem that ensues at the Bates Motel in “Psycho.” > > This case is about Iraq, not Niger. The real victims are the American people, not the Wilsons. The real culprit - the big enchilada, to borrow a 1973 John Ehrlichman phrase from the Nixon tapes - is not Mr. Rove but the gang that sent American sons and daughters to war on trumped-up grounds and in so doing diverted finite resources, human and otherwise, from fighting the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11. **That’s why the stakes are so high: this scandal is about the unmasking of an ill-conceived war, not the unmasking of a C.I.A. operative who posed for Vanity Fair.** This is one time I’d _really_ like to see the Domino Theory work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791.md?page=25)