# Did Karl Rove out the CIA Agent? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 2, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791 "2005-07-02T03:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/121 "2005-07-05T05:04:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Two comments: first, as to the general issue of revealing covert CIA operatives, the President is th eultimate authority for determining who is and is not a covert operative. The CIA is a creature of the executive. If he orders the release of the entire CIA payroll, that’s legal… I would be interested to hear precisely what originalist Constitutional text you would cite to support this extraordinary proposition. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/122 "2005-07-05T05:30:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I would be interested to hear precisely what originalist Constitutional text you would cite to support this extraordinary proposition. You know, ome day you should schedule some down-time and read the whole document; it would save us both some time. Art II, Sec 1: > [@](#): > > The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/123 "2005-07-05T05:33:24Z")
Isn’t treason a hangin’ o-fence in war time? If that thars the case we’ll need: 1. Extra strong quadruple hemp rope to accommodate the jowls at the large base of a tapering head (narrows considerably at the top). 2. Extra strong hangin’ frame made of oak and rated at about 5000 lbs of dead weight. 3. A piano case (a la The Guinness Book of World Records) for burial. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/124 "2005-07-05T06:36:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You know, ome day you should schedule some down-time and read the whole document; it would save us both some time. > > Art II, Sec 1: Organizations under the executive branch are exempt from the\* law!\*? Now you’re getting downright scary. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/125 "2005-07-05T06:56:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Organizations under the executive branch are exempt from the\* law!\*? Now you’re getting downright scary. Where did **Bricker** or his referenced document state that? Take off the tinfoil. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/126 "2005-07-05T07:23:05Z")
> [@](#): > > …the President is th eultimate authority for determining who is and is not a covert operative. The CIA is a creature of the executive. If he orders the release of the entire CIA payroll, that’s legal… Right about there. Assuming that friend **Bricker** is not about to suggest that GeeDubya authorized the “outing” of Ms. Plame then he must be suggesting that the President can limit the vexations of the law _after the fact_. Scary, like I said. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/127 "2005-07-05T16:29:24Z")
I’m going to remember this “wait for the facts” thingy the next time the cons (no one in particular mind you) leap to some insane conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/128 "2005-07-05T18:59:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Right about there. Assuming that friend **Bricker** is not about to suggest that GeeDubya authorized the “outing” of Ms. Plame then he must be suggesting that the President can limit the vexations of the law _after the fact_. > > Scary, like I said. Determining who, or who is not, authorized to know the identity of covert agents falls squarely in the executive lap. The President could say, “OK. I now authorize everyone in the US to know the names of covert agents.” He could then list the names, addresses, and telephone numbers of every CIA employee and he wouldn’t be in violation of the law that’s at the center of all this. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/129 "2005-07-05T19:23:21Z")
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: I have complete confidence that history will look back on the GWB Presidency as being so high-stinkin’ corrupt and evil that it makes Nixon look like amateur hour by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/130 "2005-07-05T21:18:16Z")
> [@plnnr](#): > > Determining who, or who is not, authorized to know the identity of covert agents falls squarely in the executive lap. The President could say, “OK. I now authorize everyone in the US to know the names of covert agents.” He could then list the names, addresses, and telephone numbers of every CIA employee and he wouldn’t be in violation of the law that’s at the center of all this. Could you link to the law in question please? I find it hard to believe that the law as written exempts the Prez.? I could be wrong though. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/131 "2005-07-06T00:14:58Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Could you link to the law in question please? I find it hard to believe that the law as written exempts the Prez.? I could be wrong though. > **[U.S. Code Title 50. War and National Defense | FindLaw](https://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-50-war-and-national-defense/)** > > Browse all sections of U.S. Title 50. War and National Defense in Findlaw(:':)s database I don’t see anything that says the president can do it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/132 "2005-07-06T00:27:24Z")
> [@plnnr](#): > > Determining who, or who is not, authorized to know the identity of covert agents falls squarely in the executive lap. The President could say, “OK. I now authorize everyone in the US to know the names of covert agents.” He could then list the names, addresses, and telephone numbers of every CIA employee and he wouldn’t be in violation of the law that’s at the center of all this. If President Bush authorized the disclosure of Valerie Plame’s covert status, then he should step forward and admit that he did so and remove the cloud that’s over Karl Rove’s head. On the other hand, if the disclosure was done without Bush’s authorization then a law has certainly been violated. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/133 "2005-07-06T01:05:12Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/50/chapters/15/subchapters/iv/sections/section\_421.html](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/50/chapters/15/subchapters/iv/sections/section_421.html) > > I don’t see anything that says the president can do it. Do you see anything that defines the term “covert agent?” Who do you believe is responsible for determining whether a particular agent is covert? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/134 "2005-07-06T01:14:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you see anything that defines the term “covert agent?” > > Who do you believe is responsible for determining whether a particular agent is covert? You really think duhbya micromanages so much he determines who will be covert? You either have your head buried deep up his ass or you are an idiot. Six of one half dozen of the other. ---
**Author:** ![JimSox5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5a626/32.png) [@JimSox5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimSox5)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/135 "2005-07-06T01:17:00Z")
Well, I didn’t see the report, but I did hear the “lead in” to this on CNN just before I got off work, which asked “Was one of Bush’s highest advisors involved in the uncovering of a CIA agent?” So, assuming they were referring to Rove, this is getting some coverage outside the newspapers. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/136 "2005-07-06T01:25:27Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > You really think duhbya micromanages so much he determines who will be covert? > > You either have your head buried deep up his ass or you are an idiot. > > Six of one half dozen of the other. From a legal standpoint, the President is the Chief Executive, and the decision about any executive matter rests with him. Of course, as a day to day matter, the Director of the CIA, or the head of one of the CIA directorates, would make that determination. But as a legal matter, they do so at the direction of, and at the pleasure of, the President. The President determines who a covert agent is, within the meaning of the law. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/137 "2005-07-06T01:35:42Z")
Got anything like a point here, **Bricker**? Did the President _personally_ nullify her covert status, pursuant to some executive privilege that, thus far, only you seem to know about? Well, then, no crime was committed, and he just sat there and watched this prosecutor go tearing around for shits and giggles? Or are you suggesting that GeeDubya can nullify her status _after the fact_, and make the crime go poof! gone!? Either that, or you are tossing in a perfectly irrelevent factoid without the slightest bearing on the matter at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/138 "2005-07-06T01:50:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Two comments: first, as to the general issue of revealing covert CIA operatives, the President is th eultimate authority for determining who is and is not a covert operative. The CIA is a creature of the executive. If he orders the release of the entire CIA payroll, that’s legal. In other words, if the president does it, that means it not illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/139 "2005-07-06T01:50:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Did the President _personally_ nullify her covert status, pursuant to some executive privilege that, thus far, only you seem to know about? Well, then, no crime was committed, and he just sat there and watched this prosecutor go tearing around for shits and giggles? That’s possible. I merely pointed out the possibility. Nor am I speaking of “executive privilege,” as that phrase is a term of art with a meaning of its own. No, I’m referring to the JOB of the executive. Stop trying to cast this as mysterious. It’s obvious that _someone_ is responsible for declaring that particular agents are “covert.” Who do you imagine it is? If it’s anyone in the Executive Branch, then, ultimately, it’s the President. Anyone else works for the President, and serves at his direction and pleasure. What I said was: > [@](#): > > …President is th eultimate authority for determining who is and is not a covert operative. The CIA is a creature of the executive. If he orders the release of the entire CIA payroll, that’s legal. There can be no cavilling on this point. > [@](#): > > Or are you suggesting that GeeDubya can nullify her status _after the fact_, and make the crime go poof! gone!? No. If she was covert at the time the disclosure was made, the crime is complete. A future act does not change the fact that a crime was committed. And of course, as I said before, regardless of whether a crime was committed by the revelation, lying to the grand jury – if, in fact, that happened – is most certainly a crime in and of itself, and should be vigorously prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791/140 "2005-07-06T01:52:47Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > In other words, if the president does it, that means it not illegal? Correct. This is an act that is not illegal if committed by the President. (Or if committed by the Director of the CIA, or if committed by any other official with the authority to determine which agents are covert.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-karl-rove-out-the-cia-agent/310791.md?page=8)