# Did Kerry blow it on the "allies" front? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979 "2004-10-01T02:40:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/1 "2004-10-01T02:40:52Z")
So I’m watching the debate and a glaring inconsistency occurs. (There’s a surprise) Kerry first blasts Bush for not having any allies in the Iraq war, since we all know France and Germany are the only other countries on Earth. :rolleyes: Then says he’ll use bi-lateral talks with Kim Jong mentally-Il to end their nuclear program. Bush counters this with the fact that right now it’s the US, Russia, South Korea, China and Japan all working together on it. Then Kerry later says again he’d use bi-lateral talks to handle the situation. Um, don’t those other 4 countries count as a coalition of allies? We’re now supposed to scrap these 4 Big Players to “go it alone”? For a guy so concerned about handling international threats by getting other nations to sign on to the plan, why is Kerry so insistant on abandoning 4 countries so he can handle NK all by himself? 4 countries that have a very real stake in this. Senator Kerry, there are other countries in the world besides France and Germany! :wally ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/2 "2004-10-01T02:53:29Z")
That struck me as strange as well. I think Bush won the North Korea round, but lost over all. Kerry just SOUNDED better, smoother, etc. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/3 "2004-10-01T02:56:10Z")
I’m not sure who won that. DIdn’t Bush say something about the bilateral talks making it easier to hold the multi-national talks, and later say that bilateral talks wouldn’t work? I think I heard that, but I’m not sure. Anyone else pick that up? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/4 "2004-10-01T02:59:35Z")
Bush said that he will continue to support multi-national talks and that bi-lateral talks are a mistake. I agree with him there…it would be a mistake, and its also strange that Kerry would bush on Bush for NOT going multi-national on Iraq (where we were essentially bi-national :)), then turn around and say he wants to drop the multi-national talks in favor of bi-lateral talks between the US and NK…wierd. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/5 "2004-10-01T03:32:02Z")
You know I have heard alot of people referring to Kerry’s alleged assertion that the Chinese and other countries should not be involved in the negotiations. I did not take it that way. What I heard was that Bush is talking to everyone except North Korea and that the cutting off of a dialog with N. Korea actually made the situation worse. I remember that Bush even said he does not want to have dialog with N. Korea. He stated that plain and simple. This is where I see the difference. Maybe I missed something big, but I think this was Kerry’s overall point, that Bush has cut off dicussion with N. Korea. The validity of these opposing points is up for debate, but I do not think Kerry was advocating cutting out other countries. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/6 "2004-10-01T03:54:13Z")
Kerry said he would have bi-lateral and multi-lateral talks with the North Koreans. Bush asserted that having bi-lateral talks would cause the multi-lateral talks to “evaporate.” How exactly that would work, he didn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/7 "2004-10-01T04:03:45Z")
(as an actual question) Did I miss something, or is Kim Jong Il not really interested in “multilateral talks”. I was under the impression that bilateral would be OK for them (him), just not multilateral. If this _is_ the case, I think we should engage in bilateral talks with Jong Il (to get the ball rolling, at least). Does this mean we should completely disregard the wishes of the countries that would be included in the multilateral talks? Of course not; what would stop us from meeting with the other countries (China, etc.) to collect their views on the NK situation, and then bringing those views with us to the bilateral talks? If this _isn’t_ the case, would someone please fight my ignorance? (Oh and subsequently ignore the above parable, since it would lose its relevance.) LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/8 "2004-10-01T04:05:43Z")
Best moment of the night was Bush saying in rebuttal “You forgot Poland.” Well damn, that changes everything, Mr. President. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/9 "2004-10-01T04:11:01Z")
Also, don’t you think it’s curious that Bush is content to leave our security in the hands of _China_? Gosh, I know I sleep better at night knowing that China is looking out for our interests on nuclear weapons in the hands of Kim Jong Il. BUt then again, I don’t live on the west coast. ---
**Author:** ![leroy\_the\_mule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6a8cbe/32.png) [@leroy\_the\_mule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leroy_the_mule)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/10 "2004-10-01T04:19:11Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Senator Kerry, there are other countries in the world besides France and Germany! :wally :dubious: …erm… Russia, Canada, France and Germany, were/are strong allies in the war in Afghanistan. Kerry is right–you don’t just piss on your friends and expect to get anywhere in a fight. North Korea is a different situation where a bilateral agreement under Clinton effectively neutralized their nuclear threat–until Bush Jr. willfully refused to continue the dialogue. Duffer, do you forget that our allies’ skepticism turns out to be correct? If we had listened to our allies we would have found out through inspections that there were no WMD in Iraq–a possibility which Bush Jr. and co. were unwilling to accept. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/11 "2004-10-01T04:22:12Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Best moment of the night was Bush saying in rebuttal “You forgot Poland.” > > Well damn, that changes everything, Mr. President. No joke. I was thinking “Yeah, he also forgot Costa Rica.” :wally LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Spree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@Spree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spree)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/12 "2004-10-01T04:30:15Z")
I interpreted Kerry’s statement to mean that he would reopen dialogue with North Korea, while still working with the other countries on that end to effect change. Bush, OTOH, refuses to have bilateral discussions with North Korea on the grounds that that would cause the other countries (or was it just China) to pull out of the process. Where was this “glaring inconsistency” again? > [@](#): > > We’re now supposed to scrap these 4 Big Players to “go it alone”? When did Kerry say that? Seriously, did I miss that part? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/13 "2004-10-01T04:32:56Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > No joke. I was thinking “Yeah, he also forgot Costa Rica.” :wally > > LilShieste Costa Rica asked us to take them off our list, as fans of _The Daily Show_ already know. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/14 "2004-10-01T04:35:44Z")
Bush is exactly right on his North Korea strategy, and Kerry is dead wrong. The reason you need China to deal with the problem is because China is the only country that has leverage on North Korea that doesn’t not involve military brinksmanship. China can cut trade. China can cut aid. China can do any number of things to influence North Korea that the U.S. can’t do. If talks are between the U.S. and North Korea, they will simply boil down to threats of force and demands. That type of negotiation winds up with the kind of deal Clinton brokered last time - one that North Korea will simply break whenever it thinks it can go to the well again with more blustering and threats. And one day, the U.S. will have to call that bluff, and that day will be incredibly destructive. China has the best chance of changing North Korea’s behaviour peacefully. Right now, it’s absolutely the best way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/15 "2004-10-01T04:41:48Z")
I’d prefer not to farm out US national security to China. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/16 "2004-10-01T06:03:40Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Bush is exactly right on his North Korea strategy, and Kerry is dead wrong. …says the guy who thinks the “Swift Bullshitters for Bush” are credible. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/17 "2004-10-01T06:38:06Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’d prefer not to farm out US national security to China. Come on now. _Negotiation_ is being pushed into China’s lap because they are the only ones with non-miliary leverage on North Korea. Given our increased strategic asset presence in the Pacific, it would be more than a bit ignorant to say we are farming out our ‘national security’. Besides, what happened the last time we negotiated with North Korea? You remember, when Jimmy Carter announced that he struck a deal and Albright made her little trip? As I recall, that didn’t turn out so well. > [@rjung](#): > > …says the guy who thinks the “Swift Bullshitters for Bush” are credible. 😉 Ah, you heeded my command and are continuing with your campaign of stupid one-liners. Good for you, my little minion! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/18 "2004-10-01T06:43:58Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Also, don’t you think it’s curious that Bush is content to leave our security in the hands of _China_? Gosh, I know I sleep better at night knowing that China is looking out for our interests on nuclear weapons in the hands of Kim Jong Il. BUt then again, I don’t live on the west coast. It would have been curious if that’s what he said, but it wasn’t. He said you can’t deal with NK w/o China. And I agree. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/19 "2004-10-01T07:19:35Z")
First of all, we’re forgetting that there is a huge difference between _talking_ to another country, and _invading_ another country. Kerry blasted Bush because Bush _unilaterally invaded_ Iraq without a real coalition. I don’t see any inconsistency in that; it’s simply not the same thing. Kerry hasn’t suggested a unilateral invasion of North Korea, has he? Second, as already pointed out, I didn’t hear Kerry say he would _cut off_ China; I believe that was _Bush’s_ contention - that China doesn’t want us to talk to North Korea. But Kerry’s point was that the 2 aren’t mutually exclusive. And some pundit (sorry, forgot who) came on after the debate and said that, in fact, China _wants_ us to talk to North Korea. And another pundit said that dealing through China make us appear weak. I don’t know who’s right, but it sounds like a difference of opinion, not an inconsistency on Kerry’s part. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979/20 "2004-10-01T12:02:16Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > It would have been curious if that’s what he said, but it wasn’t. He said you can’t deal with NK w/o China. And I agree. As do I. But that’s no excuse for ignoring the NK nuclear threat and leaving the solely situation in the hands of China, as Bush has done. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-blow-it-on-the-allies-front/266979.md?page=2)