# Did Kerry commit Treason? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256 "2004-10-14T19:58:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ParadoxMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@ParadoxMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParadoxMan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/1 "2004-10-14T19:58:17Z")
Forgive me if this has already been answered According to this [site](http://patriotpetitions.us/kerry/), there is a petition demanding that John Kerry be prosecuted for “giving aid and comfort to the enemy” in times of war and be disqualified for national office. I find it thoroughly preposterous and silly that anyone would call John Kerry a traitor. However, I am not a legal scholar and do not know exactly what “giving aid and comfort” consists of. Taken to one extreme I could see where it could be argued that one is giving aid and comfort to the enemy by simply dissenting or protesting against a war while it’s in progress. But at the other extreme, nothing short of outright shooting at our own troops would qualify. In a legal sense, at what point does someone’s dissent/actions become treasonous? If elected to the Office of the President, could Kerry be impeached on these grounds? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/2 "2004-10-14T20:06:23Z")
This is an area where amendments 1 and 14 crash into each other pretty hard. But I think Kerry’s safe, barring the advent of a total police state here. That would mean that everyone who objected to any war gave comfort and aid to the enemy … and that’s a big list. Heck, you could argue that anyone who doesn’t vote for Bush is opposing the president in a time of war and thus emboldening our enemies. Prepare for half the country to go to prison. Basically, I think you’d need a pretty high threshold of imapct here. The Rosenbergs giving H-bomb secrets to the reds = treason. Kerry saying the war in Vietnam was not being fought well = not treason. IANASupremeCourtJustice. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/3 "2004-10-14T20:58:17Z")
Here’s the relavent area of interst, from the OP’s cite: > [@](#): > > Kerry met, on two occasions, with North Vietnamese negotiators in 1970 and 1971… It has to depend on exactly what transpired in those meetings, which is not at all clear. I’d be surprised, however, if there was enough substance to charge Kerry with treason. If there were, one of his Senatorial opponents would surely have done so a long time ago. This is not some new issue-- O’Neill (of the Swift Vets 527 group) has been after Kerry since 1971. Maybe the documentary “Stolen Honor” will flesh out the charges more. If so, I would hope there will be someone from the Kerry side to offer the counteraguement. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/4 "2004-10-14T21:29:15Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Maybe the documentary “Stolen Honor” will flesh out the charges more. If so, I would hope there will be someone from the Kerry side to offer the counteraguement. Ah, you crazy dreamer, you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/5 "2004-10-14T22:13:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Kerry met, on two occasions, with North Vietnamese negotiators in 1970 and 1971… It’s worth noting that the only evidence these meetings ever occured is Kerry’s own statement that it did. Curious that some people are convinced that everything Kerry says is a lie EXCEPT for that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/6 "2004-10-14T22:18:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > ICurious that some people are convinced that everything Kerry says is a lie EXCEPT for that. Cite that \*\*\*anyone \*\*\*thinks everything Kerry says is a lie except that statement? Methinks you have strayed into strawman terrirtory. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/7 "2004-10-14T22:49:57Z")
There are two basic contentions of treason. First, that Kerry’s aforementioned meeting with North Vietnamese negotiators was treasonous because of an historical footnote called the Boland Law, to the effect that it was illegal for a private citizen to negotiate with foreign, and most especially belligerant nations. The case relies on a strenurous exertion to define “negotiation” to include damn near anything. Kerry referred to the visit in his Senate testimony, referencing a previous visit by Sen Eugene McCarthy. He said that in his judgement (and, presumably, advisors) that so long as he scrupulously avoided any “negotiation”, and given that his circumstances were so similar to the precedent set by Sen McCarthy, he was pretty sure he was in compliance with all relevent laws. Myself, I take him at his word. If for no other reason but that there is no chance whatever that the NV thought that Kerry was empowered to negotiate, nor did he so represent. The other argument is more emotional, to the effect that Kerry’s anti-war activity, by its very nature and his fervent advocacy, offered aid and comfort to the enemy. The most rational of these invokes the effect of dissent on our enemie’s morale and determination. In effect, such an effort offers comfort, if not aid. It is unfortunate that no political action can be entirely innocent, outside of Jimmy Carter. But there you have it, you are invariably choosing between evils. I wrestled with this notion then, as I am pretty sure Kerry did. But consider: if we accept the notion that criticizing the government in time of war is illegitimate and unpatriotic, we write a _carte blanche_ for any scoundrel to render himself immune to examination and accountability. I trust no one will argue that we have not, nor will we, elect a scoundrel. Another, and far more repulsive, scenario is the retarded cousin to the above argument, the kind of argument usually confined in the attic and fed on gruel. This holds Kerry at fault because the NV used such to torment POW’s and undermine thier will to resist. This is wretched behavior, to be sure. But again, if one must\* refuse\* to do good, by opposing an administration in grevious error, because evil men will _misconstrue_ the meaning of your actions…well, when ever would you act? ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/8 "2004-10-14T22:52:27Z")
To these people, the truth is treason. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/9 "2004-10-14T23:41:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Kerry referred to the visit in his Senate testimony, referencing a previous visit by Sen Eugene McCarthy. He said that in his judgement (and, presumably, advisors) that so long as he scrupulously avoided any “negotiation”, and given that his circumstances were so similar to the precedent set by Sen McCarthy, he was pretty sure he was in compliance with all relevent laws. That’s not what he said. > [@](#): > > Myself, I take him at his word. If for no other reason but that there is no chance whatever that the NV thought that Kerry was empowered to negotiate, nor did he so represent. That doesn’t matter. Not only are you not only allowed to negotiate, you are not allowed to influence negotiations. A prominent antiwar veteran from the other side is sure as shit going to influence things. Kerry’s recommendation and urging that the use except the Vietnamese proposal unchanged is also an influence. > [@](#): > > The other argument is more emotional, to the effect that Kerry’s anti-war activity, by its very nature and his fervent advocacy, offered aid and comfort to the enemy. The most rational of these invokes the effect of dissent on our enemie’s morale and determination. In effect, such an effort offers comfort, if not aid. No. It is aid. Having an advocate fight your propaganda war for you is aid. The way they were able to use Kerry’s testimony to torture POWs is aid. > [@](#): > > It is unfortunate that no political action can be entirely innocent, outside of Jimmy Carter. But there you have it, you are invariably choosing between evils. I wrestled with this notion then, as I am pretty sure Kerry did. Fuck the two evils. What the fuck is the other evil? He betrayed his own. His actions resulted in a prolongation of the war and the torture and imprisonment of his own countrymen according to many of those POWs. The North Vietnamese consider the man a hero for the aid he provided them, and they have his picture hanging in a place of honor in the war remnants museum. Kerry testified that leaving Vietnam would be relatively easy, and at best any subsequent purges would only effect a couple of thousand people. After we took Kerry’s advice, the real genocide occured. I’m not talking about the lie of genocide he accused the US of, I’m talking about the millions of people killed immediately following the war and up into the 80s, and it still continues today with Montagnards, et al. Not only did Kerry betray our own troops. He betrayed those we abandoned by repeating and endorsing the lies told to him by Madame Binh. > [@](#): > > But consider: if we accept the notion that criticizing the government in time of war is illegitimate and unpatriotic, If anybody actually ever says such a thing, I’ll be sure and have them talk to you. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/10 "2004-10-14T23:45:51Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > THaving an advocate fight your propaganda war for you is aid. If that were true you could make a case for treason against every American who was involved in the antiwar movement. Sure you want to go there? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/11 "2004-10-14T23:47:47Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Fuck the two evils. What the fuck is the other evil? :rolleyes: The other evil was letting the war continue. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/12 "2004-10-14T23:51:07Z")
So some of the same people who say that Kerry was planning his political career 35 years ago are also saying that he also committed a treasonous act and admitted to it? Strange career move. No, I don’t think it was treasonous for a citizen to talk with peace negotiators in Paris. I think it was treasonous for McNamara, Johnson and Nixon to lie to their countrymen about the war. According to Charles Colson, Nixon brought O’Neil in to counter the things that Kerry was saying in the early 1970’s. On the Oval Office tapes Nixon can be heard commenting about Kerry’s abilities. Colson commented in his diaries about how the White House set out to destroy Kerry and O’Neil was part of that plan. (Source: PBS, _Frontline_: “The Choice”) Interesting program if you get a chance to see it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/13 "2004-10-14T23:57:41Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I think it was treasonous for McNamara, Johnson and Nixon to lie to their countrymen about the war. You are wrong. > [@](#): > > Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court. Might as well get the meme that treason is “a government official doing something wrong” out of the way. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/14 "2004-10-15T00:03:32Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > You are wrong. > > Might as well get the meme that treason is “a government official doing something wrong” out of the way. Fuck that. George W. Bush is guilty of treason. He’ll never do time (not on that particular charge, anyway), but he’s guilty. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/15 "2004-10-15T00:06:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Fuck that. George W. Bush is guilty of treason. He’ll never do time (not on that particular charge, anyway), but he’s guilty. You’re a lawyer, right? Make your case… ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/16 "2004-10-15T00:10:52Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > You are wrong. > > Might as well get the meme that treason is “a government official doing something wrong” out of the way. But not the meme that criticizing the government is, of course. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/17 "2004-10-15T00:37:34Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > You’re a lawyer, right? Make your case… In a **legal** sense he’s not guilty, of course. That’s not what I’m talking about when I call GWB a traitor. And that’s a meme I want to keep alive! ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/18 "2004-10-15T01:38:22Z")
“Traitor” is an extremely strong accusation. Benedict Arnold was a traitor. Tokyo Rose was a traitor. Julius Rosenberg was a traitor. Neither John Kerry nor George Bush are traitors. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/19 "2004-10-15T01:48:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If that were true you could make a case for treason against every American who was involved in the antiwar movement. Sure you want to go there? As Scooby Doo would put it, “Absorutely.” One may protest a war without committing treason. However, one may not conduct fraudulent investigations, and make a sworn testimony based on lies to indict your comrades, then meet with the enemy, and then work on their behalf. Do those things and you’re a traitor. Kerry did. I don’t understand by what definition of “traitor,” and “treason” Kerry’s actions don’t qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/20 "2004-10-15T01:52:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: > > The other evil was letting the war continue. Really? Literally millions of people died in the communist purges that immediately followed our desertion of the North Vietnamese. Millions more have lived in oppression and torture. You think that fulfilling our commitment as allies and as simple human beings to save those people would have been evil? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256.md?page=2)