# Did Kerry commit Treason? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256 "2004-10-14T19:58:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/61 "2004-10-16T03:51:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Wait, be fair. By constitutional definition it’s only treason if you’re giving aid and comfort to the **enemy.** The only enemy of America that Fox, Coulter, et al. have been aiding is George Bush, and somehow I don’t think that would count. (Should, though.) As Bush is giving aid and comfort to Saudis, aren’t Coulter and her ilk then committing treason by proxy? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/62 "2004-10-16T05:17:08Z")
Scylla: What a bunch of twisted, lip-flapping, basackwards nonsense that reply was. First you say that raping and ear-cutting and torture occurred in “every single war” “since the dawn of time.” Then you say that John Kerry simply “pretended” those same atrocities happened in Vietnam. What the hell? Then you try to compare war crimes with driving infractions? Jesus. The FACTS are there. There are THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of military DOCUMENTS and AUDIO TAPES attesting to those FACTS. FACTS, Scylla. Not pretend generalities from _other_ wars. Actual raping and mass murdering and decapitations and shoelace necklaces adorned with ears that “just about everyone had” IN VIETNAM. Tortures and murders of innocent civilians waving fliers promising them safety. The military and the government have been COVERING IT UP for decades. These crimes were not uncommon (though John Kerry _never_ implied that they were _universal_!), they _were_ endorsed and/or overlooked at Every! Level! of Command!, and they were absolutely _not_ punished, which you would know if you’d have bothered to read the Pulitzer Prize-winning expose I linked directly to. So you give _me_ a break. And don’t tell me what I know. I KNOW that John Kerry was telling the absolute truth because SEPARATE WITNESSES – hundreds of them – attest to the very things he said, and because thousands of pages of documents say the same things. Not in generalities, in very explicit, specific detail. But we should believe you that John Kerry is a liar because… because… well, because, what, because _you_ say so?? That is utterly, laughably absurd. Get your head out of the sand and accept reality. It’s ugly and it’s painful, but it’s a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/63 "2004-10-16T13:51:10Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Scylla: > > What a bunch of twisted, lip-flapping, basackwards nonsense that reply was. I read this kind of thing, as “I have no real answer so I’ll just make insults.” > [@](#): > > First you say that raping and ear-cutting and torture occurred in “every single war” “since the dawn of time.” Then you say that John Kerry simply “pretended” those same atrocities happened in Vietnam. No. That’s not what I said. > [@](#): > > Then you try to compare war crimes with driving infractions? Jesus. No. I didn’t do that, either. > [@](#): > > The FACTS are there. There are THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of military DOCUMENTS and AUDIO TAPES attesting to those FACTS. > > FACTS, Scylla. When come back, bring some. Your FACTS do not argue what you claim they argue. > [@](#): > > Not pretend generalities from _other_ wars. Actual raping and mass murdering and decapitations and shoelace necklaces adorned with ears that “just about everyone had” IN VIETNAM. Just about everyone? Very well. Let’s define “just about everyone” as 2/3, a solid majority. If you are arguing facts with me then give me a cite showing that 66% or more of American soldiers in Vietnam had such necklaces and I will concede that Kerry’s testimony is essentially correct. Let’s boil it down to just one of your FACTS. Show me that, and you win. If you can’t, then I expect you to concede that your FACTS don’t demonstrate what you claim. Fair enough? > [@](#): > > The military and the government have been COVERING IT UP for decades. These crimes were not uncommon (though John Kerry _never_ implied that they were _universal_!), they _were_ endorsed and/or overlooked at Every! Level! of Command!, and they were absolutely _not_ punished, which you would know if you’d have bothered to read the Pulitzer Prize-winning expose I linked directly to. I’ve read it more than once. It characterizes a specific group. > [@](#): > > So you give _me_ a break. And don’t tell me what I know. I KNOW that John Kerry was telling the absolute truth because SEPARATE WITNESSES – hundreds of them – attest to the very things he said, and because thousands of pages of documents say the same things. Not in generalities, in very explicit, specific detail. Then back up your one fact, and I’ll concede. > [@](#): > > But we should believe you that John Kerry is a liar because… because… well, because, what, because _you_ say so?? That is utterly, laughably absurd. Because he provably lied. > [@](#): > > Get your head out of the sand and accept reality. It’s ugly and it’s painful, but it’s a fact. It is huh. 66% percent of American soldiers in Vietnam made necklaces out of ears. Let’s see it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/64 "2004-10-16T15:02:57Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > …I’ve read it more than once. It characterizes a specific group… Excuse please, but, huh? Wha? Is there some relevence to that remark? What are you struggling to infer? Are you suggesting that _only_ those soldiers who were directly connected to the Tiger program were guilty of “misconduct”? On what do you base this spectacular cognitive leap? An utterly dishonest debater, someone entirely unlike yourself, might try to claim that because _only_ the aforementioned Tiger group crimes are verified and documented, and the Winter Soldier testimony does _not_ include such, then the WS allegations must therefore be false in every jot and tittle. But you don’t, of course, because that would justly expose you to ridicule. So please clarify. Are you trying to suggest that _only_ the men discussed in the Toledo article were guilty of war crimes? And can you prove that none of the crimes discussed in the WS testimony were associated with this group? And can you then show us why, in the name of all that is holy, we should give a shit? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/65 "2004-10-16T19:48:40Z")
Just to be clear, things like the cutting off of ears and the like are the sorts of things that happen when an army finds itself fighting not just a uniformed enemy, but a guerrilla force backed by the people themselves. In a situation like Vietnam, which was a civil war, this is inevitable, since some section of the population among which you are fighting is going to be hostile to you. The result is as follows, which comes from a book, _365 Days_, written in 1971 by a pediatrician who served in the medical corps as a Major during Vietnam, recounting a story told him. Hearsay? Yes. But it wasn’t there to prove any kind of point, it was just a war story. The bad stuff happens in between, and in context it’s perfectly understandable; any of us could easily see ourselves doing the same thing. Point being, if you want to avoid the nastiness, stay out of fights that don’t pertain to you: > [@](#): > > _Chapter 6: Search and Destroy_ > > That evening, the company was mortared - two rounds that sent the already exhausted troops scurrying for shelter… **It was the fifth night that week they were hit.** …Before breakfast, a patrol was sent out to sweep the area around the nearby village…All they found were the usual, uncooperative villagers. The patrol, against orders, went into the village, searched a few huts, kicked in a door, and left. > Later that morning, the company began sweeping again…A trooper tripped a wire and detonated a claymore set up to blow behind him. It took down three others, killing two right off and leaving the third to die later… > The platoon finally came onto a small dirt road…They were sitting there sitting there, strung out along the road, when they spotted a small figure putt-putting toward them. They watched disinterestedly while the figure moved toward them, and became an old man driving a scooter… > The point…walked wearily into the center of the road and stopped there, waiting. The old man slowed to a stop and stared at the trooper, impatiently waiting for him to move. He had a small steel container strapped to the back of his Honda. The point levelled his weapon at the small man’s stomach and, walking around him, motioned for him to open the container. The old man hesitated. The trooper calmly clicked his M-16 to automatic. Holding it with one hand, he carefully opened the container. > “Hey”, he said, lowering his weapon, “the dink’s got cokes.” > The rest of the platoon got to their feet. The point was reaching into the container when the old man grabbed his wrist. Startled, the trooper jumped back… > “Fifty cent!” the old man demanded, waving five fingers in the trooper’s face. “Fifty cent!”…The point reached in again, only to have the old man slap his hand away…From the side of the road there was the metallic click of a round being chambered. The old man turned on his scooter and kicked at the starter… > “I want a coke,” one of the troopers said, and swinging his rifle he knocked the top off the steel container. The Vietnamese spun around and spit at him. The trooper took a small step backward, smoothly brought the weapon up into the crook of his arm and emptied the magazine into him… > **That night, a little after midnight, just as they were getting to sleep, the company was rocketed again** …In the morning, the patrol sweeping the area just in front of the village found the partially destroyed cross-pieces of a rocket launcher. When they brought it back, the CO examined it and asked permission to hit the village. It was denied. That afternoon, two platoons of the company were ordered out of the area to take part in a combined sweep of a nearby VC stronghold… > The next morning the two platoons were flown back to the rest of their company. **That first night back they were hit again - two mortar rounds.** The next day on patrol near the village, the slack stepped on a buried 50-caliber bullet, driving it down on a nail and blowing off the front part of his foot. When the medic rushed to help, he tripped a pull-release bouncing betty, blowing the explosive charge up into the air…Some of the white-hot metal, blowing backwards, caught the trooper coming up behind him. > …the Captain sent a squad to sweep the village before it got dark. The troopers, bitter and angry, found the villagers equally hostile and antagonistic. The villagers watched sullenly as the troopers, fingers on their triggers, walked by their huts. No words were exchanged; no signs of recognition; the hate was palpable…Behind one of the huts, a squad found a rotting NVA medical kit. Without asking for approval they burned down the hut and waited there threateningly till it burned itself to the ground. > Half a kilometre past the village…their point was cut down by a burst of automatic fire…a trooper, looking up, saw something moving away from behind the nearest hedgegrove. > “Fuck it,” he screamed, the last of his adolescent control gone. In a sudden fury, he ripped off his webb gear. Even before it hit the ground he was up and running…The rest of the squad was running after him…Just past the next grove they caught them - a girl and two men. They caught them out in the open and killed them, shooting them down as they ran…Then they stripped the girl, cut off her nose and ears, and left her there with the other two for the villagers… I trust that’s enough to set the context, and the reason why mere common sense would tell you that Kerry was uncomfortably closer to the truth than most of us would like. That discomfort you feel is from being on the occupying side of a foreign country we had no business being in. In that impossible situation, bad things will inevitably happen, merely as part of going about a typical, typically awful, day. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/66 "2004-10-18T23:02:12Z")
[http://mediamatters.org/items/200410180009](http://mediamatters.org/items/200410180009) Some excerpts from the _Media Matters_, the (entirely partisan!) site by David the Apostate…originally appeared in a criticism of _Hannity and His Bitch_ > [@](#): > > …conservative historian Guenter Lewy claimed in his 1978 book, America in Vietnam, that a Naval Investigative Service report about the Winter Soldier allegations had discredited many of the witnesses and accounts, Naval Criminal Investigative Service public affairs specialist Paul O’Donnell could not confirm this report’s existence. Further, a February 14 Baltimore Sun article cites Lewy himself as admitting that “he does not recall if he saw a copy of the naval investigative report or was briefed on its contents.” > > Apart from Lewy’s allegations, an MMFA search uncovered no other evidence that any Winter Soldier witness was an impostor. One veteran, who is portrayed in Stolen Honor as a fraud who “never set foot” in Vietnam, has filed a libel lawsuit against the film’s producer, Carlton Sherwood. The Associated Press notes that the veteran, Kenneth J. Campbell, now a professor at the University of Delaware, “attached copies of his military records to the lawsuit, showing that he received a Purple Heart and eight other medals, ribbons and decorations for his service in Vietnam.” > > MMFA has also noted that two of the POWs featured in Stolen Honor contradict the claim that Kerry’s 1971 testimony was used to torture Americans held in Vietnam. Former POW Jim Warner said that “the last torture that we knew of had taken place in September of 1969,” and that when Kerry’s testimony was invoked in an interrogation of Warner, it was “without torture.” Former POW Leo K. Thorsness also admitted in a published bio that the use of torture had decreased by the time Kerry testified. > > Furthermore, MSNBC correspondent David Shuster reported that he found no evidence Kerry’s name was used in the interrogation of all American POWs in Vietnam: “[T]he film only features POWs who say John Kerry’s name was invoked by north Vietnamese prison guards. But we’ve spoken to dozens of POWs who spent years in Vietnamese prison camps and say they never heard John Kerry’s name mentioned once.”… Granting the this is published on a decidedly partisan site, unlike the paragons of candor and civic virtue so beloved of friend **Scylla** , the Freepers. the site does post links for those curious enough to track them down. Besides the aforementioned Mr. Lewy, have the swiftvets and freepers any other substantiation for their claims about Sen Kerry than thier own insistence that it must be so? (Actually, I didn’t really need to mention **Scylla** ’s name, but, curiously enough, it seems that when I do mention him directly, he usually reads it. Odd. Doesn’t always work with **Sam Stone** , but…ooops! I did it again…) ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/67 "2004-10-19T00:35:43Z")
**pantom** , particularly wrt Scylla, I fear we are speaking to a mind so closed that a mountain of evidence the size of Everest wouldn’t be sufficient – witness his last reply. The facts don’t say what they claim to say. Okaaaaay. Seems pretty straight forward to me, but if he wants to live in his fantasy world where Vietnam was the supposed exception to every war since the dawn of time, and steadfastly refuse to accept outright confessions by men who say that they, themselves, committed these crimes (as opposed to Kerry’s hearsay testimony), well, there’s really nothing that can be done to prevent it. I’ve been reading through [this site](http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_13_3Marine.html), which appears to be the actual Winter Soldier testimony from that Detroit meeting that Kerry based his Senate testimony on – quite chilling. It’s a long read, so I’m nowhere near done, but it’s painfully obvious that these men are speaking the truth with heavy hearts and weary souls. Though I haven’t thoroughly recorded all the names mentioned and compared them to the Tiger Force articles to try to match any up, it seems as though, based on a cursory glance-through, that there isn’t any overlap. IOW, many of these same crimes and atrocities were perpetrated by both groups independently of one another, lending further credence to their “commonness”. I see this much the same way as I do the current prisoner abuses in Bush’s “War on Terror.” Accusations came out of Gitmo for months and months, describing specific abuses against prisoners. All the while, no one wanted to believe them – we’re the “good guys,” we don’t commit prisoner abuse. Besides, these are war criminals who cannot be believed – liars every one of them. Then some brave and moral souls came forward to expose the exact same abuses occurring in at least one prison in Iraq, complete with photographic and documented evidence. Now we must believe or be branded fools, and the testimony of the Gitmo prisoners became entirely believeable and credible. And that’s exactly as it is with the now uncovered, documented evidence about the Tiger Force case as it pertains to the Winter Soldier claims – the evidence of one lends credence to the other. I also came across [this article](http://foi.missouri.edu/classdeclass/army.html), which, while neither it nor I make any actual accusations, included this interesting tidbit which I had not previously known: > [@](#): > > U.S. Sen. George Voinovich (R., Ohio) said he sent a copy of The Blade’s series this week to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld “to get his comments. Specifically, I’ve asked him what has been done since Vietnam to prevent these types of atrocities from happening again.” > > Mr. Rumsfeld, whose office declined to comment on the series, served his first stint as secretary of defense under President Gerald Ford beginning in November, 1975 - the same month the Tiger Force investigation was closed. Records show that summaries of the Tiger Force probe were sent to his predecessor, James Schlesinger, in 1973, but it’s not clear whether Mr. Rumsfeld was informed of the case. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/68 "2004-10-19T00:45:28Z")
> [@ParadoxMan](#): > > According to this [site](http://patriotpetitions.us/kerry/), there is a petition demanding that John Kerry be prosecuted for “giving aid and comfort to the enemy” in times of war and be disqualified for national office. Sorry, John Kerry is one of our nation’s “elite.” These people have special priviledges not given to most common citizens. We can expect that John Kerry will be brought to question for his ‘treason’ at about the same liberal level as Jane Fonda was prosecuted for manning (or womaning?) a NVA anti-aircraft gun. In otherwords, not at all. The thing that bothers me most about the liberal movement in this country is the push to feel sorry for criminal perpetrators while they make laws that turn honest citizens into criminals. Kerry’s voting record is a great example: he has voted against increasing mandatory penalties for the criminal misuse of firearms. He voted against funding expanded federal prosecution of violent, armed drug dealers. (S. 254) He even voted against the death penalty for terrorists who murder Americans overseas. (S. 1798) He consistantly votes to restrict the 2nd amendment right “of the people” to keep and bear arms, however. _By his own words_ the 2nd amendment he promises to protect is “as currently interpreted,” that is the 9th circuit court’s interpretation that only the militia has the right. No. We don’t prosecute traitors in Amerika. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/69 "2004-10-19T00:53:54Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > We can expect that John Kerry will be brought to question for his ‘treason’ at about the same liberal level as Jane Fonda was prosecuted for manning (or womaning?) a NVA anti-aircraft gun. Cite? And not a cite about Jane posing for a silly photo-op, but a cite documenting that she actually fired the thing at American or South Viet troops. > [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > The thing that bothers me most about the liberal movement in this country is the push to feel sorry for criminal perpetrators while they make laws that turn honest citizens into criminals. Kerry’s voting record is a great example: he has voted against increasing mandatory penalties for the criminal misuse of firearms. He voted against funding expanded federal prosecution of violent, armed drug dealers. (S. 254) He even voted against the death penalty for terrorists who murder Americans overseas. (S. 1798) > He consistantly votes to restrict the 2nd amendment right “of the people” to keep and bear arms, however. _By his own words_ the 2nd amendment he promises to protect is “as currently interpreted,” that is the 9th circuit court’s interpretation that only the militia has the right. > > No. We don’t prosecute traitors in Amerika. None of those things are treason even in a moral sense (let alone a constitutional sense). They’re merely questions of political judgment where reasonable people might differ and where Kerry reached different conclusions than you would have. For a president to lead the country into a disastrous and interminable war based on a pack of lies, on the other hand . . . hard to characterize that as anything **but** treason. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/70 "2004-10-19T01:33:51Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > Then I want Fox News, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, and their ilk brought up on charges. > > Honestly… you Republican shills for the worst in your party would be funny if it wasn’t so horrifying. And isn’t it about time that Bush, Blair and Cheney were tried for war crimes against the people of Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256/71 "2004-10-19T03:51:20Z")
Well, **Shayna** , it’s like this: The point of his testimony, the point of being against idiotic wars like Vietnam and Iraq, is that you only send young people into that hell when you have to, not because some Ivory Tower rube comes up with some crackpot theory like “The Domino Theory” or “preventive war” (as Truman so aptly noted, You don’t ‘prevent’ anything by war…except peace."). And as [The Powell Doctrine states,](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/teachers/lessonplans/iraq/powelldoctrine_short.html): > [@](#): > > …military action should be used **only as a last resort and only if there is a clear risk to national security by the intended target** ; the force, when used, should be overwhelming and disproportionate to the force used by the enemy; there must be strong support for the campaign by the general public; and **there must be a clear exit strategy from the conflict in which the military is engaged.** All of that minimizes the Hell the soldiers have to go through. They lied about the first bolded part, but that’s not nearly as bad as screwing up the second bolded part as thoroughly as they have, because screwing that up has placed all those soldiers smack in the middle of another war where you once again have a hard time separating your friends from your enemies, and once again that’s an open door to abuse and worse. Actually, it all boils down to one simple saying: don’t let your mouth write a check that your body can’t cash. Of course, in war, the neat thing if you’re the Maximum Leader is that you don’t have to cash that check with your own body. As to the closed minds, in all of history they’ve never won a lasting victory, and they never will. Winning this election - assuming he does - doesn’t mean that Bush the Second won’t go down in history as a lying, war-mongering, spendthrift demagogue. Nixon won re-election too, after all. If this boob does, the Democrats will sweep the Republicans out of both houses of Congress in two years in a 1974-style landslide. There’s a limit to the damage he’ll be able to pull. And you can take it to the bank that he’ll leave office disgraced, because he’s too immature to figure out that that limit exists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-kerry-commit-treason/269256.md?page=3)