# Did large dogs ever exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 23, 2006, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839 "2006-09-23T10:52:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/41 "2006-09-25T22:58:37Z")
[QUOTE=mittu] I seem to recall reading on these forums about one of our ancestors that ‘stood’ 8-9 feet tall and weighed 800-900lbs. I can’t remember if it was someone debunking the idea that such a creature existed or stating that it did but it sounds pretty unlikely to me thinking about it now. [/QUOTE] [thread=312593]This[/thread] is the thread to which you are referring, in which we came to the conclusion that the Wikipedia article on the topic was a hoax. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/42 "2006-09-25T23:07:17Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] [thread=312593]This[/thread] is the thread to which you are referring, in which we came to the conclusion that the Wikipedia article on the topic was a hoax. Stranger [/QUOTE] Good find! And if you go to my wikipedia link above, you’ll see that the \*Meganthropus \*page was edited to exclude the psuedoscience claims of an 800 lb _H. erectus_. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/43 "2006-09-25T23:08:11Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] No, the claim was made in this forum. I remember-- I was the one who debunked it. It wasn’t _Gigantopithicus_, but a subspecies of _Homo erectus_. I just did a quick search to find that old thread (had to be at least 2 years ago), but couldn’t find it. Look at “extreme claims” under [url=]Meganthropus-- that’s the closest I was able to get to the wikipedia page (which may have been removed). [/QUOTE] I didn’t see that thread. In any case, decades ago, when much less was known about _Gigantopithecus_ and human ancestry, the former was sometimes alleged to be closer to humans than it actually is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/44 "2006-09-25T23:11:38Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] I didn’t see that thread. In any case, decades ago, when much less was known about _Gigantopithecus_ and human ancestry, the former was sometimes alleged to be closer to humans than it actually is. [/QUOTE] Yes. I think some Bigfoot enthusiasts **still** cling to that notion. ---
**Author:** ![Chotii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Chotii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chotii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/45 "2006-09-26T07:36:56Z")
Has anybody factored in the size difference of the f1 Lion/Tiger hybrid Liger (or is it the Tigon), which can weigh upwards of 1000 lbs, full grown? It can be several times the size or an ordinary lion or tiger…maybe even the size of a prehistoric Sabertooth Tiger type felid. Why could there not be a canid F1 hybrid that would grow equally large compared to its parents? As for the argument about small-sized animals hunting in packs, and even the ‘low dog’ getting a bite…that’s true, but lions hunt in packs, and very often, the cubs, or weaker individuals, do not get to eat. And they die. Yet lions - large animals - are reasonably healthy as a species (if you take the predation of man out of the picture.) Why does it matter that the canids are small, for hunting purposes? ---
**Author:** ![friendlessboob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/71c47a/32.png) [@friendlessboob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friendlessboob)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/46 "2006-09-26T08:51:23Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] Thank you. I’m a professional biologist (Ph.D.). More importantly, I am official SD [Curator of Critters.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/011116.html). [/QUOTE] Well crap man, that is a bit of a let down, I was hoping you were a lay genius. Oh well, I guess I will have to go to Stranger On A Train for non-professional smarty smart smarty pants comments…unless SOAT is some kind of sneaky Doctor of Phulocraphy too. Either way its fun to call someone SOAT, which is a cross between a Stoat and a Sot, or a Coat and a Slut (sorry). Also I found out in a completely unrelated thread that some 17 year old guy named FranzJ or something is getting his PhD in Fishery Studies…so if you have any Fishery related questions, make sure you ask him…like how do I ensure I never have to work in, or live near, a Fishery…also, if one has a PhD in Fishery Studies, how does one deal with never, ever, having sex with a woman…or the SAT question - **Fish** is to **Fishery** as \_\_\_\_\_ is to **You Made A Terrible Career Choice** …another thing is how Fishery and Misery sound the same if you are really drunk, and being really drunk is a pre-req for Fishery employment…(honestly I am sure it is a fascinating field, it just sounds funny to me) …and don’t think I forgot you **Colibri** , first of all Curator of Critters is totally a Canadian “Educational” movie about STD’s…secondly you are named after a terrible, terrible, drink, Compari and Cola with a chunk of Cantaloupe in it - aka the “Nasty Colibri”…last but not least the clouded leopard is about as medium as yer butt, also its not even clouded, its more splatchily colored as you can see [in this clip of baby clouded leopards](http://www.cloudedleopard.org/mov/cubbies_noaudio.mpg) …ok someone needs to make my 8 month old go to sleep, and stay asleep, because my brain is broken… ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/47 "2006-09-26T11:19:00Z")
[QUOTE=friendlessboob] Oh well, I guess I will have to go to Stranger On A Train for non-professional smarty smart smarty pants comments…unless SOAT is some kind of sneaky Doctor of Phulocraphy too. [/QUOTE] You will be disappointed there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/48 "2006-09-26T15:12:44Z")
[QUOTE=Chotii] Has anybody factored in the size difference of the f1 Lion/Tiger hybrid Liger (or is it the Tigon), which can weigh upwards of 1000 lbs, full grown? It can be several times the size or an ordinary lion or tiger…maybe even the size of a prehistoric Sabertooth Tiger type felid. Why could there not be a canid F1 hybrid that would grow equally large compared to its parents? [/quote] The Liger (a sterile cross between a male lion and a female tiger), because a peculiarlity of its genetics, lacks a growth regulator and hence grows to be the largest felid. However, it is not “several times the size” of other big cats; it is perhaps twice the weight of a male lion but only 25% more than the largest Siberian Tiger. A large Sabre-toothed Cat such as _Smilidon_ weighed only about 200 kilos and thus was smaller than the largest extant lions or tigers. As I said previously, the Siberian Tiger may be the largest felid ever to have existed, as far as a member of a naturally occurring species goes. Ligers, other hybrids, and domesticated forms are essentially irrelevant to the question of why large canids do not occur in nature. > [@](#): > > As for the argument about small-sized animals hunting in packs, and even the ‘low dog’ getting a bite…that’s true, but lions hunt in packs, and very often, the cubs, or weaker individuals, do not get to eat. And they die. Yet lions - large animals - are reasonably healthy as a species (if you take the predation of man out of the picture.) Why does it matter that the canids are small, for hunting purposes? It has already been pointed out that the hunting strategy employed by lions is different than that used by canids. Canids are cursorial pursuit predators, while lions are (mostly) ambush predators that pursue their prey only over short distances. Large size is much less of an advantage for a cursorial predator. The only felid to use this strategy is the Cheetah, which is much smaller than the really big cats, and even it relies on ambush to get an initial jump on its prey and pursues it for a much shorter distance than canids do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/49 "2006-09-26T15:14:50Z")
[QUOTE=Chotii] Has anybody factored in the size difference of the f1 Lion/Tiger hybrid Liger (or is it the Tigon), which can weigh upwards of 1000 lbs, full grown? It can be several times the size or an ordinary lion or tiger…maybe even the size of a prehistoric Sabertooth Tiger type felid. Why could there not be a canid F1 hybrid that would grow equally large compared to its parents? [/QUOTE] Those hybrids do not occur in nature, so it’s unclear whether they would survive in nature if they did. Just being big isn’t a sure-fire boost in survival ability. There might be any number of physical problems these hybirds might have in the wild. The reason ligers get so big has to do with the way certain growth regulating genes work in lions and tigers. The lion’s X cromosome has a growth inhibiting gene that the tiger’s X chromosome does not. Male Ligers get their only X chromosome from the tiger mom, which is why they grow so large. Male Tigons (tiger dad, lion mom) do not exhibit this phenomenon since they get their X chromosome from their lion mom. I’m not sure if any canid species have similar growth regulating genes on their sex chromosomes. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/50 "2006-09-26T15:58:05Z")
[QUOTE=friendlessboob] ..secondly you are named after a terrible, terrible, drink, Compari and Cola with a chunk of Cantaloupe in it - aka the “Nasty Colibri”… [/quote] How do you know the drink isn’t named after me? 😉 Actually, my name comes from the fact that I did my thesis work in hummingbirds (_colibri_ in Spanish) in Panama. > [@](#): > > last but not least the clouded leopard is about as medium as yer butt, also its not even clouded, its more splatchily colored as you can see [in this clip of baby clouded leopards](http://www.cloudedleopard.org/mov/cubbies_noaudio.mpg) . Clouded Leopards are actually pretty small, getting up to about 23 kg/50 lb, and are smaller than Lynx, which reach 38 kg/80 lb. They are nowhere near the size of the true Big Cats. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/51 "2006-09-26T17:08:58Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] > [@friendlessboob](#): > > Oh well, I guess I will have to go to Stranger On A Train for non-professional smarty smart smarty pants comments…unless SOAT is some kind of sneaky Doctor of Phulocraphy too. You will be disappointed there as well. [/QUOTE] Not really. I don’t have a Ph.D in anything, despite a disconcerting number of graduate-level credits. (None in biology or evolutionary zoology, though…that’s just an idle passtime.) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/52 "2006-09-26T20:56:02Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] Not really. I don’t have a Ph.D in anything, despite a disconcerting number of graduate-level credits. (None in biology or evolutionary zoology, though…that’s just an idle passtime.) Stranger [/QUOTE] You’re still a professional smarty pants though, right? I mean, “been to college” was the standard for entrance to the club. ---
**Author:** ![bluesmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ab992/32.png) [@bluesmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bluesmurf)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/53 "2006-09-27T02:13:45Z")
What about the Irish wolfhound? It’s the tallest dog today, though not the heaviest. The wolfhounds we have today are probably smaller than the original breed, they nearly died out and had to be bred with deer hounds and other large dogs. They might have been pitted against lions in acient rome [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish\_Wolfhound#History](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Wolfhound#History) ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDragonFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@FlyingDragonFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDragonFan)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/54 "2006-09-27T17:26:33Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] Canids are cursorial pursuit predators … [/QUOTE] I’m not sure I understand the use of cursorial here. According to my dictionary, cursorial means having legs adapted for running. Are you using it to mean an animal that chases its prey, as opposed to jumping out of the bushes and pouncing? Just trying to clarify. Thanks. Also, I noticed that several posters have speculated that canids never got larger because bears already occupy the niche that they’d likely be trying to get into. The Wiki article you linked to about the Maned Wolf says that in addition to meat, it eats a lot of fruit. Coincidence? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/55 "2006-09-27T17:56:03Z")
[QUOTE=bluesmurf] What about the Irish wolfhound? It’s the tallest dog today, though not the heaviest. The wolfhounds we have today are probably smaller than the original breed, they nearly died out and had to be bred with deer hounds and other large dogs. [/QUOTE] As was noted earlier, domestic animals don’t count in this discussion as they don’t occur in nature. Same deal with the liger. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/56 "2006-09-27T17:56:20Z")
[QUOTE=FlyingDragonFan] I’m not sure I understand the use of cursorial here. According to my dictionary, cursorial means having legs adapted for running. Are you using it to mean an animal that chases its prey, as opposed to jumping out of the bushes and pouncing? Just trying to clarify. Thanks. [/quote] By a cursorial hunter, I mean one that typically takes its prey by running it down over some distance. Pack-hunting canids (and also solitary ones) may chase their prey over many miles, basically wearing it out. Felids don’t do this; instead they usually lay in wait or sneak up on prey, then rush it over a short distance. They rely on strength to overpower their prey, rather than tiring it out by a chase over a long distance or harrying it once it is cornered. Even the Cheetah, which is much more cursorial than other felids, only chases its prey over relatively short distances compared to canids. > [@](#): > > Also, I noticed that several posters have speculated that canids never got larger because bears already occupy the niche that they’d likely be trying to get into. The Wiki article you linked to about the Maned Wolf says that in addition to meat, it eats a lot of fruit. Coincidence? Many, I think most, canids will eat fruit or other vegetable matter on occasion. The Gray Fox, which is quite small, will eat corn, apples, berries, and nuts. In this they differ from felids, which are much more specialized on a meat diet. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/57 "2006-09-28T13:44:32Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] Those must be some weasels! :eek: [/QUOTE] Pretty normal, apparently. [This](http://www.abdn.ac.uk/mammal/weasel.shtml) page lists young rabbits as occasional prey. Wikipedia claims they have been known to take hares, which I suppose isn’t beyond the realms of possibility but would be pretty ambitious. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/58 "2006-09-28T17:31:57Z")
I just dropped in to say “Dire Poodle”, because it makes me giggle. That’s all. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![friendlessboob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/71c47a/32.png) [@friendlessboob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friendlessboob)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/59 "2006-09-30T07:01:35Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] By a cursorial hunter, I mean one that typically takes its prey by running it down over some distance. Pack-hunting canids (and also solitary ones) may chase their prey over many miles, basically wearing it out. [/QUOTE] I was going to use Cola boy’s quote as a wafer thin excuse to reference my fear of one of the most cursorial of the cursorial hunters, the African Wild Dog (aka Painted Dog). Up until 5 minutes ago I had something of a morbid dread of their legendary hunting behaviour, chasing their prey at a dead run (like 30+ MPH, yikes) for miles. To ensure that my "facts " were at least cross checked I did a little wikipedia-ing, which is now called “wikipeding”, and googling. Looks like some sites talk about how they chase they prey at a dead run for miles, but others say that while that may be possible, they mostly catch their prey in a few minutes (although they may disembowel it on the run). In addition they are one of the most social and least violent (too each other) hierchal social animals, they sometimes even let their puppies eat first! So I fought my own ignorance there a little, sort of. Until I found out more about them they were scary (duh). It just goes to show you that fear is strongest when supported by ignorance. [Eats first (unless eating regurgitated meat, yum).](http://www.tusk.org/images/photos/paintdogs_puppy.jpg) [Linkrinksinkfink](http://www.awf.org/wildlives/4548) ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839/60 "2006-09-30T16:58:35Z")
[QUOTE=friendlessboob] It just goes to show you that fear is strongest when supported by ignorance. [/QUOTE] Sadly true; people tend to fear that which they do not understand. This has been truth for as long as we’ve had people not understanding things. Was talking to a cute girl about how she was afraid of flying because it was dangerous (when truth be told, it’s one of the safest ways to get around just because of the sheer amount of training and regulations involved in doing almost anything involving flying, as opposed to some truly dangerous act such as driving) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-large-dogs-ever-exist/373839.md?page=4)