# Did LBJ and Ted Kennedy destroy America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230 "2013-09-19T14:34:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jebert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ec9cab/32.png) [@jebert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jebert)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/1 "2013-09-19T14:34:59Z")
A few of my college friends and I exchange emails on various topics. A recurring theme from a couple of them is how bad LBJ and Ted Kennedy were for the country. A typical comment is: "Let’s just say that only LBJ beats “Teddy"when it comes to having been destructive to the US. His legacy too will be endlessly negative.” So far the country hasn’t fallen apart, despite whatever it is they might have done. What do dopers think about the legacies of LBJ & Ted Kennedy? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/2 "2013-09-19T14:37:29Z")
For LBJ- in short, he was very important to getting Civil Rights passed, so that was very good. He also was very important in getting us involved in Vietnam, and I think that was not good. I think those were the two biggest things LBJ was involved in, so he has a mixed legacy IMO. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/3 "2013-09-19T14:41:13Z")
Just to be clear, you’re asking us to debate some wild, unsupported claim made by people who don’t post here? Hows about having them join, make their case, and then we’ll debate them? I mean, taken at face value, the question is ludicrous. America isn’t “destroyed”, so the answer is no. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/4 "2013-09-19T14:41:44Z")
The proper response to such is to 1. Stomp the ground 2. Say, “I assure you, it exists.” ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/5 "2013-09-19T14:41:50Z")
And the space program- getting things built in Texas was important to Johnson. We should have had him around for the supercollider. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/6 "2013-09-19T14:45:27Z")
I thought LBJ WAS a supercollider. Or maybe that’s just what his opponents felt like. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/7 "2013-09-19T14:54:19Z")
> [@jebert](#): > > A few of my college friends and I exchange emails on various topics. A recurring theme from a couple of them is how bad LBJ and Ted Kennedy were for the country. A typical comment is: > "Let’s just say that only LBJ beats “Teddy"when it comes to having been destructive to the US. His legacy too will be endlessly negative.” > So far the country hasn’t fallen apart, despite whatever it is they might have done. > What do dopers think about the legacies of LBJ & Ted Kennedy? Can’t really debate a vague comment like that. In what way do they say LBJ and Teddy K destroyed the USA? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/8 "2013-09-19T14:54:33Z")
Since America has not been “destroyed,” this is an easy one. But if you really want to discuss, both were “complicated” men, by which I mean they were like most of us, a mixture of decency, flaws, inspiration, and disappointment. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/9 "2013-09-19T15:49:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For LBJ- in short, he was very important to getting Civil Rights passed, so that was very good. He also was very important in getting us involved in Vietnam, and I think that was not good. I think those were the two biggest things LBJ was involved in, so he has a mixed legacy IMO. Putting aside whether he was a good or bad influence, he was probably the most _concequential_ post-war President . Aside form Vietnam and Civil Rights, he also created Medicare, Medicaid, started federal funding of schools, the Clean Air Act, presided over the bulk of the development of NASA’s Gemini and Apollo missions, passed the FOIA\*, created PBS and NPR, got rid of racial quotas for immigration and created the food-stamps program. There isn’t really any President between now and FDR who got so _much_ done or had so much of his agenda passed. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/10 "2013-09-19T15:58:37Z")
Without knowing the specific claims, my guess is that some element of the argument from naive, Fox-informed right wing types is that the Great Society has shackled us with massive, unsupportable debt, has limited our productivity and has created a subclass (approximately 47% of us or so) that are looking for nothing but a handout. If this is the argument, we could talk about a lot of empirical evidence demonstrating the failure of those hypotheses, but it won’t matter. Generally, you’re looking at people who are uninterested in and unmotivated by facts. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/11 "2013-09-19T15:59:21Z")
I suspect they’re not talking about Vietnam or civil rights legislation strictly speaking, but rather the “Great Society” initiatives. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/12 "2013-09-19T20:36:50Z")
Kids today! Don’t know jack about history. It was **FDR** who destroyed America! We used to be a free country, with a gold standard and everything. Now we’re a welfare state, everbody dependent on “Socialist Security.” It’s all the deal he made with Stalin. Sold us out. Why the hell’d we drop bombs on Japan if we’re just going to let them take over all our car dealerships? FDR. He’s the one who destroyed this country. (Well, why not? That’s kind of the way I feel, in real life, about Ronald Reagan!) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/13 "2013-09-19T20:39:57Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Kids today! Don’t know jack about history. It was **FDR** who destroyed America! We used to be a free country, with a gold standard and everything. Now we’re a welfare state, everbody dependent on “Socialist Security.” It’s all the deal he made with Stalin. Sold us out. Why the hell’d we drop bombs on Japan if we’re just going to let them take over all our car dealerships? FDR. He’s the one who destroyed this country. > > (Well, why not? That’s kind of the way I feel, in real life, about Ronald Reagan!) Silly! Ronald Reagan never bombed the Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/14 "2013-09-19T23:35:39Z")
Well, we are a smoldering, charred ruin of a country, and something destroyed us completely. Sure, LBJ and Ted Kennedy could be the cause, but where is the evidence linking LBJ and EMK to our charred, rusted and worthless carcass of a country? As others have pointed out, the country isn’t destroyed, so LBJ and EMK get a pass on destroying the country. Denying the consequent is a valid proof. [Denying the consequent - definition of Denying the consequent by The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Denying+the+consequent) Your friends are utterly wrong and generally not to be trusted when it comes to matters of logic and observation. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/15 "2013-09-19T23:55:49Z")
I think Dopers are being silly trying to disprove the charge. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > … my guess is that some element of the argument from naive, Fox-informed right wing types … The only focus here should be to encourage OP to ask his “college friends” where they get their info. Answer might be interesting; they may know FauxNews is untrustworthy so get their political erudition from Facebook, YouTube or Yahoo Answers. :smack: OP must approach the subject gingerly: “This information seems so important! Teach me how to find it on the Internet too!” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/16 "2013-09-20T01:28:02Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Silly! Ronald Reagan never bombed the Japanese. On the contrary! Ticket sales in Japan for _Bedtime for Bonzo_ were _abyssmal_! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/17 "2013-09-20T02:42:07Z")
LBJ was a POTUS, but Ted Kennedy was only a Senator – what did or could he, personally, ever to that could rise to national-destruction level? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/18 "2013-09-20T02:45:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For LBJ- in short, he was very important to getting Civil Rights passed, so that was very good. He also was very important in getting us involved in Vietnam, and I think that was not good. I think those were the two biggest things LBJ was involved in, so he has a mixed legacy IMO. I should think the things RWs most hate LBJ for would be the Great Society and the War on Poverty. (Actually, the things they **really** most hate him for would be the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act, but even in this climate they can’t say that out loud.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/19 "2013-09-20T04:09:19Z")
If they’re singling out LBJ and Teddy Kennedy, while it could be the Great Society and their notable liberalism, my guess is it’s the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, which was signed by LBJ and of which Teddy Kennedy was a pretty big promoter. It got rid of the quota system of immigration, and allowed in a lot more non-whites and people from non-European countries. A lot of racists think that the passage of this bill is when the US really started to go to hell. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230/20 "2013-09-20T16:03:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > LBJ was a POTUS, but Ted Kennedy was only a Senator – what did or could he, personally, ever to that could rise to national-destruction level? Well, Ted was a Democrat and sponsored more legislation that passed than any other US Senator (and probably House Rep too) in US history. Unlike right wing hero Strom Thurmond who served even longer, but never passed a single authored bill. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lbj-and-ted-kennedy-destroy-america/669230.md?page=2)