# Did Led Zep rip off someone else for intro to Stairway to Heaven?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [May 20, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833 "2014-05-20T15:10:42Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/21 "2014-05-20T19:55:35Z")
> [@Chefguy](#):
>
> I just learned the intro to Stairway a few weeks ago. This tune sound _vaguely_ similar, but I don’t see a strong similarity.
Are you kidding? I’ve got stannum ears, but I don’t see how you can miss that there is a virtually identical sequence there. And I hope by ‘just learned’ you mean just learned to play it. It’s gotta be one of the most identifiable songs of the past half century.
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### Author:  [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/22 "2014-05-20T20:34:01Z")
As noted above, it’s a common chord progression (present in ‘Time in a Bottle’, ‘Feelings’, and lots of other songs.) And you cannot copyright a chord progression.
If you copy a song note for note - not just the chord progression - that can be different. And the guitar arpeggios in STH do sound pretty close to those of ‘Taurus’ (which I’d never heard before).
But the similar passages here are only a couple of measures long. It would be more damning if the similar passages were longer, or there were more of them. Say, the way ‘My Sweet Lord’ had two separate passages (over the lyrics “my sweet Lord”, and “I really wanna see you”) both of which strongly resembled passages in ‘He’s So Fine’.
I’m no IP law expert, but I am a musician and songwriter, and I wouldn’t call this infringement. And this is coming from someone who considers LZ pretty shameless ripoffs of countless old blues musicians. I know that early blues was a folk music, but LZ really pushed the envelope of that defense.
You probably listen to lots of songs every day that bear equally strong similarities to other songs you know. But unless you’re familiar with the elements of music the way songwriters and musicians are, you aren’t likely to notice the similarities unless someone points them out.
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### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/23 "2014-05-20T20:38:47Z")
Isn’t the plagiarism definition clearly defined, legally? Seven exact notes in a row or some such?
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### Author:  [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/24 "2014-05-20T22:13:29Z")
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> Are you kidding? I’ve got stannum ears, but I don’t see how you can miss that there is a virtually identical sequence there. And I hope by ‘just learned’ you mean just learned to play it. It’s gotta be one of the most identifiable songs of the past half century.
I went back to listen again. Turns out, I didn’t let it play long enough to get past the strings noodling. Yeah, the opening guitar riff is _very_ similar. And yes, I did just learn to play it; Plant, Page and I were all born around the same time, so I’ve been familiar with their music since they started making it.
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/25 "2014-05-20T22:18:20Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#):
>
> If you copy a song note for note - not just the chord progression - that can be different. And the guitar arpeggios in STH do sound pretty close to those of ‘Taurus’ (which I’d never heard before).
Thing is, it’s not even the same chord progression. The Taurus song just keeps the same upper part (C-E-A) while dececnding chromatically on the bass line.
So you basically have Am on top the whole time while the bass line goes from A to F chromatically, then hangs on a G chord with no resolution.
Stairway start with the Am, then there’s melodic motion in the upper registers of the arpeggio that goes A-B, B-C, C-F#, F#-E, and ends with a G-A resolution. To me, there’s a lot more harmonic motion going on and voice leading as opposed to the, IMHO, more simple, “let’s play three notes of Am endlessly on top of a chromatically descending bass line.” (I’m not saying that simplicity can’t be effective, but it’s a pretty obvious chord progression.) Now, the C and E figure heavily in the Led Zeppelin song, too, but the top notes give it some movement and complexity, and when you get to the fourth chord, especially, you have a completely different chord. In the Taurus song, you have something like Am(6)/F#. Stairway has a major D/F#.
Now, once again, could it have been inspired by the Spirit song? I don’t think that’s unlikely. But I think they’re different enough and the idea for the chord progression (minor chord, chromatically descending bass line) basic enough that it shouldn’t be, IMHO, copyrightable.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/26 "2014-05-20T22:29:28Z")
Then they might have to go after Dave Grohl too, because the intro to [“The Pretender”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBjQ9tuuTJQ) sounds a LOT like “Stairway”. (One of my favorite Foo Fighter tunes, btw)
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/27 "2014-05-20T22:44:18Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#):
>
> Isn’t the plagiarism definition clearly defined, legally? Seven exact notes in a row or some such?
I hope not, or else the oldest bassist who ever repetitively droned on the same note for measure after measure will then get to sue all the younger bassists who did the same thing. Along that path lies madness. 😉
Seriously, though, my money is on a quick settlement and an official recognition that the opening riff was “inspired” by Spirit’s song.
Unless (as implied by the quotes above) somehow California’s estate has grown to the point where they have enough resources to truly fight this thing in court. But that would be stupid.
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### Author:  [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/28 "2014-05-20T22:49:41Z")
Here’s a page that compares the songs Led Zep either stole or didn’t initially credit properly to the originals. Neat stuff.
[http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=1083161](http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=1083161)
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/29 "2014-05-20T22:52:59Z")
[Here’s](http://books.google.com/books?id=_MMqAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT212&lpg=PT212&dq=stephen+king+harlan+ellison+plagiarism&source=bl&ots=O4AaUVRYZF&sig=sCC0hJL8jcnQTxI4IbdpYhlDRYw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-tt7U7jOLMWWqAbLuoB4&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=stephen%20king%20harlan%20ellison%20plagiarism&f=false) a look at the same phenomenon (the difficulty in determining the difference between “inspiration” and “plagiarism”), from the fiction writing point of view, involving Harlan Ellison, Robert Sheckley, and Stephen King.
(If the link doesn’t work, Google “harlan ellison stephen king plagiarism” and a Google Books excerpt should be one of the top links.)
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### Author:  [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/30 "2014-05-20T23:07:08Z")
I have no idea though it wouldn’t surprise me but…I’m probably in the minority as far as Led Zeppelin fans go but I’m not a big fan of Stairway. Can’t explain it. I’m just not. Gimme “Kashmir” or “Trampled Underfoot” or “When The Levee Breaks” or “Hey, Hey What Can I Do” over Stairway ANY day. Matter of fact there are probably 4 or 5 songs off of Led Zeppelin IV, alone, that I like better than Stairway. Stairway’s just never really been my cup of tea even if many people have it pegged as “the #1 rock song of all time.”
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/31 "2014-05-20T23:11:59Z")
> [@JohnT](#):
>
> [Here’s](http://books.google.com/books?id=_MMqAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT212&lpg=PT212&dq=stephen+king+harlan+ellison+plagiarism&source=bl&ots=O4AaUVRYZF&sig=sCC0hJL8jcnQTxI4IbdpYhlDRYw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-tt7U7jOLMWWqAbLuoB4&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=stephen%20king%20harlan%20ellison%20plagiarism&f=false) a look at the same phenomenon (the difficulty in determining the difference between “inspiration” and “plagiarism”), from the fiction writing point of view, involving Harlan Ellison, Robert Sheckley, and Stephen King.
>
> (If the link doesn’t work, Google “harlan ellison stephen king plagiarism” and a Google Books excerpt should be one of the top links.)
I immediately saw the similarity between The Prize of Peril and The Running Man, too – I’m a big Sheckley fan.
As I’ve remarked before, there are other cases of Stephen King stories being suspiciously similar top other works, and it’s not just a case of “well, these ideas are pretty common”. _Thinner_ has the same plot as a Steve Ditko story from a 1960’s comic (“Hugo Barge” from _Journey Into Mystery_ #64 from January 1961. Less than a year later issue #83 would introduice The Mighty Thor) – fat guy pulls down a gypsy curse on himself that causes him to lose weight at a disastrous rate, leaving him cadaverously thin and eating furiously just to retain his weight as he desperately tries to find the gypsies. Aside from those two cases, I’ve never seen this story before.
[http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/bargehugojim.htm](http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/bargehugojim.htm)
> **[Hugo Barge (Earth-616)](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Hugo_Barge_(Earth-616))**
>
> 1 appearance(s) of Hugo Barge (Earth-616) 1 image(s) of Hugo Barge (Earth-616) http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/bargehugojim.htm
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### Author:  [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/32 "2014-05-20T23:13:34Z")
Here’s your “When the Levee Breaks” from 1929-
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swhEa8vuP6U)
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/33 "2014-05-20T23:14:53Z")
Then there was the case of John Fogerty, whose old record label tried to sue him for plagiarism because he sounded too much like himself. Specifically, it was claimed that “The Old Man Down the Road” sounded too much like “Run Through the Jungle” - a song that Fogerty wrote and performed but no longer owned the copyright to.
Basically, the songs are completely different, but they do contain some ‘signature’ Fogerty sounds. Just like some Bo Diddley songs sound similar, or how a Don Henley solo song might sound a bit like an Eagles’ song. Luckily, Fogerty prevailed, but the case went all the way to the Supreme Court.
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/34 "2014-05-21T01:08:13Z")
> [@racepug](#):
>
> I have no idea though it wouldn’t surprise me but…I’m probably in the minority as far as Led Zeppelin fans go but I’m not a big fan of Stairway. Can’t explain it. I’m just not. Gimme “Kashmir” or “Trampled Underfoot” or “When The Levee Breaks” or “Hey, Hey What Can I Do” over Stairway ANY day. Matter of fact there are probably 4 or 5 songs off of Led Zeppelin IV, alone, that I like better than Stairway. Stairway’s just never really been my cup of tea even if many people have it pegged as “the #1 rock song of all time.”
I don’t think that’s a particularly unusual viewpoint. I like Zep, Zep IV was the first or second album I bought with my own money, but Stairway isn’t even one of my favorite tracks on that album.
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### Author:  [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/35 "2014-05-21T01:25:12Z")
Yes, Zep stole more songs than anyone in rock. I love them but you have to be honest, they were thieves. And has been mentioned they never even said thanks.
In one memorable intro, (after being accused) Plant rambled some bullshit about it was a case of “I must have been there when he wrote it”. Shameful. I won’t research it too much but there are tons of YouTube comparison vids. Example:
[![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjPAEPFaxoM)
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### Author:  [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/36 "2014-05-21T02:24:04Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#):
>
> As I’ve remarked before, there are other cases of Stephen King stories being suspiciously similar top other works, and it’s not just a case of “well, these ideas are pretty common”. _Thinner_ has the same plot as a Steve Ditko story from a 1960’s comic (“Hugo Barge” from _Journey Into Mystery_ #64 from January 1961. Less than a year later issue #83 would introduice The Mighty Thor) – fat guy pulls down a gypsy curse on himself that causes him to lose weight at a disastrous rate, leaving him cadaverously thin and eating furiously just to retain his weight as he desperately tries to find the gypsies. Aside from those two cases, I’ve never seen this story before.
That wasn’t Stephen King. That was Richard Bachman.
Yes, I’m aware they’re the same person.
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### Author:  [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/37 "2014-05-21T03:55:22Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#):
>
> Aside from those two cases, I’ve never seen this story before.
Yea, I tend to think cases like this are coincidental. Wasting curses are a popular type of curse in various cultures\*, and gypsies and curses go together like peasants and angry-mobs or old houses and ghosts in horror literature. So the fact that over forty years two different people put the two trophes together doesn’t seem particularly unlikely.
And once you have that idea, making the victim originally fat and having him race to find the original gyspy seem obvious enough ideas that many, if not most, people would take the story in that direction.
\*(actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if both King and Ditko were inspired by Walter Cannon’s descriptions of people wasting away due to Voodoo death curses. I’d think it would be semi-well known amongst people that do a lot of macabre writing. And if IIRC, also includes a bit about the power of the priest that laid the curse being able to lift it at the last minute, and the victim returning to health).
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/38 "2014-05-21T04:17:47Z")
> [@Simplicio](#):
>
> Yea, I tend to think cases like this are coincidental. Wasting curses are a popular type of curse in various cultures\*, and gypsies and curses go together like peasants and angry-mobs or old houses and ghosts in horror literature. So the fact that over forty years two different people put the two trophes together doesn’t seem particularly unlikely.
>
> And once you have that idea, making the victim originally fat and having him race to find the original gyspy seem obvious enough ideas that many, if not most, people would take the story in that direction.
>
> \*(actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if both King and Ditko were inspired by Walter Cannon’s descriptions of people wasting away due to Voodoo death curses. I’d think it would be semi-well known amongst people that do a lot of macabre writing. And if IIRC, also includes a bit about the power of the priest that laid the curse being able to lift it at the last minute, and the victim returning to health).
I’m afraid I disagree. You’re welcome to your opinion, but the fact is that the combination of Fast Guy Threatening Gypsy who Curses him with Perpetual Wasting is a pretty specific idea, and one with not even anything _close_ to it in pop culture. Gypsy curses are one thing – I’ve never encountered this one, or anything resembling it, elsewhere. Nor do I think King or Ditko got it from Voodoo curses – I’ve encountered nothing like this in that line, either.
But King did read comic books and the like, and would’ve been reading them at just the right time to catch this Ditko offering.
Another example I’ve offered on this Board before is the King story “The Ten O’clock People”, about evil-looking aliens who walk among us, undetected by most people, but who have the privileged and high-status positions. It’s the same plot as the John Carpenter film _They Live_, which was, in turn, based on the obscure short story “Eight O’clock in the Morning” by Ray Nelso, which appeared in F&SF in November 1963. He later scripted a graphic novel adaptation that was published in _Alien Encounters_ in April 1986under the title “Nada”.
“Ten O’clock People” and “Eight O’clock in the Morning”? King clearly wasn’t trying to hide his influences. But, again, it’s hard for me to believe this wasn’t a clear case of borrowing. And, to do him credit, King’s story is a LOT fuller and fleshed out. Nelson’s story is spare and sketchy (and arguably pretty effective because of that). But I can’t think of anything else quote like it. Don’t say it’s like a version of “Invasion of the Body Snatchers”, 'cause it ain’t.
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### Author:  [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/39 "2014-05-21T04:55:58Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> Luckily, Fogerty prevailed, but the case went all the way to the Supreme Court.
The part of the case that went to the Supreme Court was regarding the recovery of attorney’s fees, not whether a copyright infringement had occurred.
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-led-zep-rip-off-someone-else-for-intro-to-stairway-to-heaven/688833/40 "2014-05-21T05:08:23Z")
Cal, do you know if King has ever addressed these remarkable coincidences?
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