# Did Lee Harvey Oswald have an escape plan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016 "2010-05-19T16:43:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/41 "2010-05-21T17:41:23Z")
> [@In\_Winnipeg](#): > > Nothing? The guy was a lousy shot. He went through Marine training, suggesting some degree of proficiency. > [@](#): > > His rifle was a piece of crap. Was it? > [@](#): > > The scope was out of whack. Was it? Are you arguing that nobody could have made the shot with that rifle? Then you have to explain what rifle _was_ used and what happened to it. > [@](#): > > He wasn’t that bright, and was prone to flights of fancy. I don’t know how smart John Hinckley is or Leon Czolgosz was, but neither was exactly well-grounded, either. > [@](#): > > Definitely the kind of guy I would pick to get caught while the other guilty parties got away. Assuming other guilty parties exist, of course. Your evidence being…? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/42 "2010-05-21T19:21:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Nothing? The guy was a lousy shot. His rifle was a piece of crap. The scope was out of whack. He wasn’t that bright, and was prone to flights of fancy. > > Definitely the kind of guy I would pick to get caught while the other guilty parties got away. Whenever you posit some conspiracy theory, stop, take a deep breath, and then ask yourself “does this make any sense?” Pretend you’re the head of some secret conspiracy to kill the President. Your organization has selected some gunmen to do the real shooting. But you need some “patsy” to take the weight. This guy has to be set up to look like he did the shooting. So do you pick a guy who’s a lousy shot and give him a piece of crap rifle with an out-of-whack scope? Or do you pick a guy who’s a crack shot and give him a top-quality rifle and scope? Remember, you want everyone to buy this guy as the shooter. And then, while you’re thinking rationally, start thinking about the conspiracy itself. For this conspiracy to have worked the way people claimed, there must have been a lot of people in on it. The Secret Service, the FBI, the CIA, the military, the Dallas police, and a bunch of other government people. So, once again, you’re the head of a secret conspiracy planning to kill the President. You have the Secret Service, the FBI, the CIA, the military, the police, and all these others in your back pocket. How do you kill the President? Do you shoot him in the middle of a public street in Dallas? Or do you arrange for him to have a heart attack when he’s sleeping in bed in the White House? Do you prefer an obvious crime that will have to be investigated or an apparent death by natural causes? Do you want to kill him in front of hundreds of witnesses or where there’s nobody around except your people? I’ve always said I don’t understand why there’s all these conspiracy theories about how JFK’s death and there’s never any conspiracy theories about FDR’s death. It’s easy to see which one looks more like the way a death by conspiracy would look. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/43 "2010-05-21T20:00:26Z")
I think there are four primary reasons for the abundance of conspiracy theories. First and foremost, I think, is the fact that Kennedy appeared to have been hit from in front and to the right - in other words from the direction of the grassy knoll. This impression was heightened by the fact that photos showed people lying on the ground looking up toward the knoll, plus at least one motorcycle cop charging up it. People generally had no realistic idea of the geography involved until the advent of the internet. Secondly, so much was screwed up in the aftermath of the shooting, with evidence missing and so forth. Then we have the very odd shooting of Oswald, which many people feel was done in order to keep him from testifying. And then there is the plethora of books containing much false or misleading information as to what happened that day and/or evidence itself. I recall reading a passage from one of the books (don’t recall which) that claimed the wound in the back of Kennedy’s head was made post mortem, a claim disputed by the doctors and others in attendance at Parkland Hospital immediately after Kennedy’s assassination. So you put all that together along with the fact that so little verifyable information was available for the average person in the days before the internet, and you have a situation ripe for the creation of endless conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/44 "2010-05-21T21:36:09Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > I think they would have figured it out pretty quickly. They found the rifle shortly after the assassination and I believe Buell Wesley Frazier, the co-worker that had given Oswald a ride to work, put the pieces together without too much trouble. He typically gave Oswald a ride home on Friday and picked him up again on Monday, but in this case Oswald asked him for a ride home on Thursday, and when he picked him up on Friday he was carrying the rifle, which he stated was curtain rods. Also, Marina Oswald stated that when she heard the president had been shot she went out to the garage where Oswald kept his rifle, and when she saw that it was gone, she knew Lee had done it. But by the time all of this had happened, would Lee have been lying on a beach in Aruba drinking fruity drinks and living under the name Steve Barnes, or would he have been caught at home 7pm that night? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/45 "2010-05-21T23:03:45Z")
> [@In\_Winnipeg](#): > > Nothing? The guy was a lousy shot. His rifle was a piece of crap. The scope was out of whack. He wasn’t that bright, and was prone to flights of fancy. > > Definitely the kind of guy I would pick to get caught while the other guilty parties got away. Go to the [Sixth Floor Museum](http://www.jfk.org/). You can’t look out the exact window that Oswald made the shot from, but you can look out one that is about 10 feet away from it. My grandmother could have made that shot. I always had a tiny shred of doubt until the day I went to the museum. Now I am absolutely convinced Oswald did it and he acted alone. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/46 "2010-05-22T00:09:50Z")
> [@](#): > > I think there are four primary reasons for the abundance of conspiracy theories. First and foremost, I think, is the fact that Kennedy appeared to have been hit from in front and to the right - in other words from the direction of the grassy knoll. This impression was heightened by the fact that photos showed people lying on the ground looking up toward the knoll, plus at least one motorcycle cop charging up it. People generally had no realistic idea of the geography involved until the advent of the internet. > > Secondly, so much was screwed up in the aftermath of the shooting, with evidence missing and so forth. > > Then we have the very odd shooting of Oswald, which many people feel was done in order to keep him from testifying. > > And then there is the plethora of books containing much false or misleading information as to what happened that day and/or evidence itself. I recall reading a passage from one of the books (don’t recall which) that claimed the wound in the back of Kennedy’s head was made post mortem, a claim disputed by the doctors and others in attendance at Parkland Hospital immediately after Kennedy’s assassination. > > So you put all that together along with the fact that so little verifyable information was available for the average person in the days before the internet, and you have a situation ripe for the creation of endless conspiracy theories. Those are all good reasons. I’d add that apparently Dealey Plaza is a natural echo chamber - the buildings there easily reflect sounds. So it would be normal for people hearing gunshots to be mistaken about the directions they were coming from. But I think the big issue was that people want to find meaning in life. Nobody likes tothink that bad things just happen - they want a reason. And if the reason doesn’t look good enough, they’ll invent a better reason. Kennedy dying because Oswald was a nut didn’t seem good enough. So they decided Kennedy must have died because he was fighting a vast conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/47 "2010-05-27T03:44:26Z")
> [@Atomicktom](#): > > Even without believing in a conspiracy theory, it amazes me how incompetent the FBI and Secret Service were. The FBI knew where Oswald worked, but never thought to note the connection between the parade route and his place of employment! Oswald had no known history of violence or of making violent threats. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/48 "2010-05-27T03:50:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Oswald apparently realized, in his more rational moments, that November 22 was not just going to be another day at the office. When his wife got up on that day, she found that before going to work he had left on the kitchen table his wedding ring, financial papers like bank records and insurance policies, and a note telling her not to worry about anything that might happen that day. False on all three. Marina found Oswald’s wedding ring in a demitasse cup in their bedroom, only after police had visited her on the afternoon of the assassination. He left no financial papers or insurance policies (he had none), nor did he leave any note. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/49 "2010-05-27T03:53:08Z")
Oswald did leave a note for Marina a few months earlier when he tried to shoot General Walker (and barely missed). ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/50 "2010-05-27T04:11:30Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > They found the rifle shortly after the assassination and I believe Buell Wesley Frazier, the co-worker that had given Oswald a ride to work, put the pieces together without too much trouble. Unfortunately, Frazier did not put the pieces together until after Oswald was arrested. After Frazier watched the assassination, and while all hell was breaking loose, he went back inside the Depository and ate his lunch. From his Warren Commission testimony: Representative FORD. Did it ever occur to you at any time following the shooting there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald and the package? Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn’t think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some [building employees] were over here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here, on the first floor and I didn’t think anything about it. I see some of the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn’t know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every week. As late as 7:30 p.m. that day, Frazier had not contacted police with any suspicions he had. The police had to find him, and he was arrested as a possible accomplice because he had driven Oswald to work that morning, presumably with the rifle. ---
**Author:** ![Klondike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/41988e/32.png) [@Klondike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klondike)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/51 "2011-01-26T20:18:27Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Fair 'nuff. > > Even without believing in a conspiracy theory, it amazes me how incompetent the FBI and Secret Service were. The FBI knew where Oswald worked, but never thought to note the connection between the parade route and his place of employment! They missed the connection between Oswald in New Orleans (where he was protesting US intervention in Cuba) with the Texas Oswald that was pro-Soviet. It amazes me how the lack of the sort of computer database commonplace today deprived the agents of the chance to anticipate Oswald’s crazy act of violence. This is why I believe, James Hosty, the Dallas FBI agent in charge of Oswald’s case file, destroyed Oswald’s note on the orders of his superior, Gordon Shanklin, in order to save the agency embarrassment . ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/52 "2011-01-26T21:02:08Z")
I think you’re overstating the ability of the FBI, and the ease with which potential threats among the population can be identified. It’s easy after an assassination to see all the warning signs that could have led to that specific individual. But what you don’t see is all the hundreds or thousands of other individuals that might also have looked threatening. It’s easy to connect the dots after the fact. Not so much before. Also, the pre-computer age was very, very different. For Oswald to be picked out before the fact would have required agents scouring through thousands of paper documents of thousands of potential threats, connecting the dots, wiring their concerns to other branch offices (who know doubt have many such leads pouring in), and then for someone else to make the connection. All paper records, having to be searched manually. For every trip the President makes. Also, there was a failure of imagination to some degree. The most obvious failure was allowing the president to drive around in an open-topped vehicle through streets filled with sniper vantage points. Today that would never be allowed, but today’s security is informed by what happened in 1963. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/53 "2011-01-26T21:23:03Z")
> [@Klondike](#): > > This is why I believe, James Hosty, the Dallas FBI agent in charge of Oswald’s case file, destroyed Oswald’s note on the orders of his superior, Gordon Shanklin, in order to save the agency embarrassment . I’ll go out on a limb and guess that Hosty, Shanklin and any possible witnesses are conveniently dead. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/54 "2011-01-26T21:28:46Z")
Given that the event happened 48 years ago, and that these guys were all senior and therefore not spring chickens at the time, that’s not exactly going out on a limb… Or was that a joke you were making? ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/55 "2011-01-26T21:42:46Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > IIRC, didn’t the police have a general description of Oswald (something like white male, 5’8", 160lbs.) and that’s what led Tippett to approach him to begin with? Aircraft pilots still use 160# (which is probably outdated WRT americans) as the weight of an unknown passenger, and 5’8" is probably pretty near average height for a US male in the early 1960s. Looking at someone, height estimates probably go about +/- 2" and weight +/- 10#. So you have “white guy, average height, average weight”. I guess such a description would rule out women, black guys, tall guys, really short guys, and fat guys…but still leave about 10% of the population. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/56 "2011-01-26T21:43:40Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Also, there was a failure of imagination to some degree. The most obvious failure was allowing the president to drive around in an open-topped vehicle through streets filled with sniper vantage points. Today that would never be allowed, but today’s security is informed by what happened in 1963. Well, you’d think someone would have taken warning from Franz-Ferdinand’s murder merely fifty years before… Still, I guess most rulers and politicians rode in open cars up to the 1940s — Hitler and Roosevelt certainly did — if only because enclosed cars seem uncommon until the 1920s, and the whole point of motorcades is for politicians to be _seen_ by adoring crowds with nothing better to do. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/57 "2011-01-26T21:50:03Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Given that the event happened 48 years ago, and that these guys were all senior and therefore not spring chickens at the time, that’s not exactly going out on a limb… Or was that a joke you were making? Oh, what Klondike said was far more comical, I assure you. Anyway, there are people alive today who remember 1963 (and indeed World War II) so it’s not inconceivable that a member of this alleged conspiracy (or a witness to it) might still be alive and able to challenge accusations in a way the conveniently dead cannot. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/58 "2011-01-26T22:01:27Z")
Going to the movies might count as an escapism plan. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/59 "2011-01-27T02:27:04Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > I really think the extent of his plan was to see a movie, then look into getting a ride home. . Going to see a movie in the afternoon, doesnt make much sense to me nor sound like a “plan”, esp after killing a police officer with a handgun. Oswald was able to plan a way to move to/and live in Russia, then able to plan to leave Russia and move back to the USA. Back then, in the 1950’s during the height of the cold war, not a whole lot of American citizens were able to move back and forth to Russia - it was not that easy. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016/60 "2011-01-27T02:40:22Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Still, I guess most rulers and politicians rode in open cars up to the 1940s — Hitler and Roosevelt certainly did — if only because enclosed cars seem uncommon until the 1920s, and the whole point of motorcades is for politicians to be _seen_ by adoring crowds with nothing better to do. Why were the Secret Service body guards (who were previously running along side of the limo protecting Kennedy), ordered to\*\* stand down\*\*, ordered to NOT ride on the back bumper of the limo, and ordered to leave the Kennedy area immediately just before Kennedy got shot? **JFK assassination: Secret Service Standdown** [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XY02Qkuc_f8/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AG-AoAC8AGKAgwIABABGGUgZShlMA8=&rs=AOn4CLDGT9VMDHA0d587vy0cptQd7XlgmA "JFK assassination: Secret Service Standdown") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY02Qkuc_f8) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-lee-harvey-oswald-have-an-escape-plan/540016.md?page=4)