# Did loyalists pay taxes during the Revolutionary War and which ones if any did they refuse to pay? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 25, 2017, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254 "2017-09-25T05:28:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254/41 "2017-10-01T14:20:08Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Actually not. There is some ambiguity but for all practical purposes, there aren’t any real claims by Taiwan to being the legitimate government of all of China. For practical purposes not. For theoretical purposes, and that was my point, the Taipei regime very much claims to be the legitimate government of all of China. A Taiwanese declaration of independence is a hotly debated topic also in Taiwan, because it would mean giving up that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254/42 "2017-10-01T14:24:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How do you feel about France? The British government didn’t officially withdraw its claims to rule France until 1760. By your theory of legal recognition that means France didn’t have a legitimate government before then. I’m not quite sure what you mean by “my” theory of legal recognition. I said explicitly that for me (as for the majority of international law doctrine), the question of statehood and legitimate government is a factual one, independent of recognition by other countries; it depends on the effective control over the territory in question, which is a factual matter. What I’m saying is that on the basis of this factual matter, it took a while for the American revolutionary governments to gain that necessary degree of effective control to be considered the legitimate government of the colonies. Certainly they had not acquired that degree of control by virtue of the Declaration of Independence alone. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254/43 "2017-10-01T22:58:01Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > Even more critically, however, it was understood by Englishmen at the time already that the crucial feature of the British constitution is sovereignty of Parliament. Parliament is free to override the unwritten conventions you refer to by adopting a statute to the contrary. I can think of about four million Englishmen who most definitely didn’t agree, and did not agree that they were denied the rights of Englishmen simply by virtue of moving to a colony. Further, you imply that the English in England flt that way - but in fact there was a significant sympathetic element who may not have supported the Revolutionary War, but definitely felt the Americans were not in the wrong. Moreover, you are assuming that the Colonial Charter was merely some local privilege that Parliament could amend or rewrite at will. The colonies most definitely disagreed with this interpretation, precisely because it meant they lacked citizenship. And I am not exactly certain you you imagine their opinion is irrelevant, given that Europeans decided to accept that position as legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254/44 "2017-10-01T23:06:41Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > What I’m saying is that on the basis of this factual matter, it took a while for the American revolutionary governments to gain that necessary degree of effective control to be considered the legitimate government of the colonies. Certainly they had not acquired that degree of control by virtue of the Declaration of Independence alone. That’s exactly _wrong_, though. The Revolutionary governments simply took over the functions of government, seamlessly and usually without much conflict. In fact, this had effectively happened **before** 1776. The Royal Governors had already lost control over the colonies, though some of them hadn’t quite realized it yet. ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254/45 "2017-10-05T02:55:01Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > But certainly, under international law, the jurisdiction of Britain over the colonies did not end the moment the Revolutionary War started. Pshaw. What law are you talking about and what court would enforce it? The jurisdiction of Britain ended with the Declaration of Independence. This fact wasn’t obvious until the Treaty of Paris, which ended the Revolutionary War, but there you have it. The United States said that “that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved,” and then managed to make it stick with the only law that really matters in such cases: force. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254/46 "2017-10-05T19:23:49Z")
> [@Ispolkom](#): > > What law are you talking about and what court would enforce it? I’m talking about international law, which despite claims to the contrary from peole (including lawyers specialised in other fields of law) is actually law. International law does not bestow statehood to countries by simply a unilateral declaration of being independent - Catalonia is in the process of learning that right now. International law does, however, grant statehood for fulfilling objective statehood criteria. Which the United States meets, of course and have done so for centuries - but not by passing the Declaration of Independence. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254/47 "2017-10-05T20:54:38Z")
I would have thought the main legality establishing the statehood of the USA was the treaty with Britain, that showed that Britain effectively recognized their new status and gave up further claims (and presumably also established some boundaries between the two.) ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254/48 "2017-10-06T02:53:19Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > I’m talking about international law, which despite claims to the contrary from peole (including lawyers specialised in other fields of law) is actually law. International law does not bestow statehood to countries by simply a unilateral declaration of being independent - Catalonia is in the process of learning that right now. International law does, however, grant statehood for fulfilling objective statehood criteria. Which the United States meets, of course and have done so for centuries - but not by passing the Declaration of Independence. International law doesn’t bestow statehood. Armies and navies bestow statehood. Would Transnistria be a country (a failed state to be sure, but it is independent, at least from Moldova), without the Russian 14th army? Why isn’t Hyderabad independent like Pakistan? For that matter, why is East Pakistan now Bangladesh and Kashmir is divided? Sometimes central governments (like Czechoslovakia) aren’t able or willing to maintain national unity by force. Other times, as with the United States and Ireland, the central government is convinced by armed force that unity isn’t worth the cost. Sure, other governments often get involved in such conflicts, and bleat about international law, but who takes that b.s. seriously? The Catalan situation is another example of my thesis. If the Catalan government declares independence **and makes it stick** , I’m sure that their national day will be the day of that declaration, just as US Independence Day is July 4, not the date the Treaty of Paris became effective in 1783. I don’t think that a declaration alone, though, will create an independent Catalan state, and it’s difficult for me, an outsider, to see that an independent Catalonia will be worth the possible cost. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254/49 "2017-10-06T17:49:39Z")
Mark Twain famously defined a dog as “that which is recognized as a dog by other dogs”. After stripping out the diplomatic niceties, that is essentially how it works with countries too. If enough other countries recognize you (or avoid confronting the fact they do not recognize you) then you are a country. If not, you’re not - you’re just a breakaway province. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254/50 "2017-10-08T14:04:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > They had plenty of time to leave even after Yorktown. A lot of people forget that the Battle of Yorktown didn’t end the war; it went on for another two years. > > But that’s somewhat beside the point. Picking up and relocating would have been a major decision. I think a lot of people would have decided to wait out the war and see who won. A loyalist who abandoned his farm in 1778 would have felt kind of foolish if the British had won the war and restored their authority in 1782. So most people reasonably waited until the war was virtually over and the results were clear before deciding if they were going to move. > > As for a post-war purge, I don’t feel it’s based on just what the losers do. As I wrote, sometimes the winners need a scapegoat. Thanks Little Nemo. I’m still not clear on the point of returning loyalists, whether or not they were able to reclaim their property. No doubt there was outright theft by the patriots of loyalist property. But did the returning loyalists sue for restitution? Were they more successful in certain parts of the country as opposed to others? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254/51 "2017-10-08T18:52:12Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I would have thought the main legality establishing the statehood of the USA was the treaty with Britain, that showed that Britain effectively recognized their new status and gave up further claims (and presumably also established some boundaries between the two.) Arguing that international recognition creates countries is the tail wagging the dog. It’s like claiming that peace treaties win wars. Nations are created and wars are won by the facts on the ground. Then a document is written which acknowledges the situation that already exists. The situation creates the document; the document does not create the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254/52 "2017-10-08T20:52:21Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > I’m still not clear on the point of returning loyalists, whether or not they were able to reclaim their property. In general, no. James W. Ely, writing in _The Guardian of Every Other Right: A Constitutional History of Property Rights_: > [@](#): > > The cessation of hostilities in 1783 did not bring much solace to Loyalists whose property was confiscated . . . The Treaty of Paris provided that there should be no further seizures of property. Many states, however, disregarded this obligation, and the confiscation of Loyalist property continued; indeed North Carolina seized Loyalist land as late as 1790. With respect to already confiscated property, the treaty merely required Congress to recommend that state legislatures make restitution of forfeited estates. As might be expected, the states ignored such recommendations. Lawsuits by Loyalist claimants in both state and federal courts proved fruitless. In _Cooper v. Telfair_ (1800), Justice William Cushing observed, “The right to confiscate and banish, in the case of an offending citizen, must belong to every government.” Consequently most Loyalists never received any compensation for their property from the states. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2017, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254/53 "2017-10-09T02:15:14Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > In general, no. James W. Ely, writing in _The Guardian of Every Other Right: A Constitutional History of Property Rights_: Thanks Freddie. I had read that many Loyalist wives would stay behind to occupy their homes, rather than let them be seized so easily. I guess they knew that once their property was seized there would be little hope of getting it back. if they occupied it however there was a good chance that their returning family/husbands would retain title of their property. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-loyalists-pay-taxes-during-the-revolutionary-war-and-which-ones-if-any-did-they-refuse-to-pay/797254.md?page=2)