# Did Martin Luther screw up Christianity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856 "2005-07-10T17:03:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/21 "2005-07-12T15:42:31Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Paul did pray for his enemy Alexander, the same way Jesus prayed for His enemies in Matthew 23-25. > > And my, I guess Jesus was NEVER bossy! Since you’re in the neighborhood read Matt 23:10 “And do not be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, the Christ” Jesus was supposed to be the Boss. Don’t equate the authority of Jesus with the pedantry of Paul. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/22 "2005-07-12T16:11:48Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > Because I have respect for a man who sacrificed Himself for His principles. By that standard, the 9/11 hijackers merit your respect. > [@](#): > > I believe He solved the problem of the cycle of violence. By not resisting evil, and trusting that this world is a mere passage to something better, true believers are freed from the fear of death and the fear of murder and degradation by evil persons. I do not fear death or murder or evil. Those are things that happen to the universe, and the universe isn’t real. > [@](#): > > But the whole concept is destroyed by the hypocrites who demand salvation but refuse to commit to the principles of Christ. Christians are supposed to follow His example, forsake their lives, not resist evil, trust in the next world. You’re too lenient. The moral imperative for Christians is “Be perfect”. > [@](#): > > When the false Christians use their hypocritical ideas to influence politics and law it affects atheists like me. The only way to keep their cheap ideas of mind control out of public life is to expose their blatant hypocrisy. Oh, so that’s what this is all about. You’re wasting your time. All men are hypocrites. Their followers will perceive you as the devil quoting scripture. An atheist attacking their beloved leader is like a visitor attacking a family’s matron. They will all gang up against you to protect him. I mean, look at you here, and try to assess your progress objectivley. It is not only the Christians whom you are alienating, but the atheists as well. Your intentions may be good, but your execution sucks. > [@](#): > > My point of view serves two purposes. It reaffirms the facts of a doctrine I truly respect, and it rejects the selfish political motives of the moral police. The only thing you need to point out to prove they have no authority is that they do not love. > [@](#): > > Jesus said that His followers are blessed when they are persecuted in His name. So how does that square with the militant Christians who insist on their view being dominant in public life? But you make it easy for them. What you do not realize, since you are blinded by zeal, is that as far as they’re concerned, you are their persecutor. Perhaps it is time for you to reevaluate your approach. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/23 "2005-07-12T16:20:07Z")
> [@](#): > > I do not fear death or murder or evil. Those are things that happen to the universe, and the universe isn’t real. Well, not yet. See you at the eternal “reunion,” I hope. > [@](#): > > Oh, so that’s what this is all about. You’re wasting your time. All men are hypocrites. Certainly true. I know I am. I try not to be, but I am. > [@](#): > > But you make it easy for them. What you do not realize, since you are blinded by zeal, is that as far as they’re concerned, you are their persecutor. Perhaps it is time for you to reevaluate your approach. Indeed, **Ex Machina** , your worst problm is that you set yourself up as the _enemy_. If you think Jesus had a good idea, imitate his kindness. He was not always patient when time was important (which I personally think is a \*VERY \* good trait!) but he was by and large well-disposed toward all others. Indeed, the only time the Bible ever notes him being angry was when he saw blasphemy being conducted in his Father’s own house. And indeed, that is perhaps the worst crime a man can do. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/24 "2005-07-12T16:25:10Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Their followers will perceive you as the devil quoting scripture. An atheist attacking their beloved leader is like a visitor attacking a family’s matron. They will all gang up against you to protect him. I mean, look at you here, and try to assess your progress objectivley. It is not only the Christians whom you are alienating, but the atheists as well. Your intentions may be good, but your execution sucks. I’ve been in this forum before and I know how it works. There is always an element who think of themselves as a community who protect each other. I am not here in “Great Debates” to make friends. No prophet of the truth is loved. They are stoned. ( And don’t make any cheap jokes about dope.) Your tactic is not new. You try to paint me as being hated by all because you can’t counter my claims. You’re just a mob-man, a lyncher. And you can’t counter my claims because you know in your heart that I am merely relaying Biblical truths. I’m not interested in cowards whether they are believers or atheists. Jesus said he did not come to bring peace but a sword, and that His teachings would set people, even families, against each other. Well, I am not here to dye my nose brown. I tell the truth as I see it. Now you can do your best to smother my posts with your gibberish, but I think those with ears to hear will hear the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/25 "2005-07-12T16:33:57Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Indeed, the only time the Bible ever notes him being angry was when he saw blasphemy being conducted in his Father’s own house. And indeed, that is perhaps the worst crime a man can do. It wasn’t any kind of blasphemy, it was _capitalism_. And if men use Christianity for capitalist gain then they should hear some angry protest. “useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.” 1 Tim 6:5 I like your use of the word “indeed” though. It really almost validates your almost appropriate observation. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/26 "2005-07-12T16:42:41Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > I’ve been in this forum before and I know how it works. There is always an element who think of themselves as a community who protect each other. I am not here in “Great Debates” to make friends. No prophet of the truth is loved. They are stoned. ( And don’t make any cheap jokes about dope.) > > Your tactic is not new. You try to paint me as being hated by all because you can’t counter my claims. You’re just a mob-man, a lyncher. And you can’t counter my claims because you know in your heart that I am merely relaying Biblical truths. > > I’m not interested in cowards whether they are believers or atheists. > > Jesus said he did not come to bring peace but a sword, and that His teachings would set people, even families, against each other. Well, I am not here to dye my nose brown. I tell the truth as I see it. > > Now you can do your best to smother my posts with your gibberish, but I think those with ears to hear will hear the truth. Oy. The sword was for dividing, not stabbing. Anyway, I misunderstood your intentions. If it is only to strut your tailfeathers here on a little message board, then please proceed. When you spoke of onerous laws and whatnot, I thought you meant something beyond the rules of SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/27 "2005-07-12T18:02:29Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > It wasn’t any kind of blasphemy, it was _capitalism_. And if men use Christianity for capitalist gain then they should hear some angry protest. Why wouldn’t they expect to see turning the other cheek? And I kind of doubt that the buyers and sellers in the Temple were Christians. At any rate, I think Jesus was more upset at the dishonesty He saw in the Temple - hence the part of “you have made it a den of thieves”. And of course, He didn’t turn the other cheek there, but made a whip of cords and drove out the money changers and overturned their tables. So if we are to take Jesus as our example… > [@Ex Machina](#): > > “useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.” 1 Tim 6:5 I thought Paul wasn’t authoritative. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/28 "2005-07-12T18:29:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And I kind of doubt that the buyers and sellers in the Temple were Christians. The reference to capitalists is to modern American Christians who see their Christianity as a source of financial blessings. Try to determine the direction of the flow before you jump in the river. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/29 "2005-07-12T18:34:31Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > A Jesus parallel could be his putting his Mom in her proper context when her presence threatened to disrupt his time of ministry. He might have snarked at her but, like the the first son and the vineyard, he did what she told him to do. And like **cosmodan** said, > [@cosmosdan](#): > > There really are a boat load of passages to indicate Jesus taught that action was the true indication of where your heart was. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/30 "2005-07-12T19:15:02Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > The reference to capitalists is to modern American Christians who see their Christianity as a source of financial blessings. It was? Here is the exchange: > [@Ex Machina](#): > > > [@smiling bandit](#): > > > > Indeed, the only time the Bible ever notes him being angry was when he saw blasphemy being conducted in his Father’s own house. And indeed, that is perhaps the worst crime a man can do. > > It wasn’t any kind of blasphemy, it was capitalism. > [@Ex Machina](#): > > Try to determine the direction of the flow before you jump in the river. Thanks for the advice, I will certainly try. In return, if you suddenly decide to change from a discussion of buying and selling in the Temple of first-century Palestine to a critique of modern American capitalism, could you signal your turns a little more clearly? It might help. And by “it” I mean “the effects of the horse collar on agarian productivity in middle Europe during the 14th century”. 😃 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/31 "2005-07-12T19:38:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > In return, if you suddenly decide to change from a discussion of buying and selling in the Temple of first-century Palestine to a critique of modern American capitalism, could you signal your turns a little more clearly? Smiling bandit was criticizing my disposition, suggesting it wasn’t Christ-like. He used the example of the moneychangers in the temple to show that that was the only thing that made Christ angry. I showed that my anger is directed toward similar hypocrisy, and therefore is similarly justified. At least I think that’s what happened. Maybe it only matters how an outsider viewed it. Be sure to stick around and tell me what I really mean. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/32 "2005-07-12T20:09:02Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > Be sure to stick around and tell me what I really mean. You’re not sure either, eh? 😃 Any response to the “Paul isn’t authoritative unless he is” discrepancy? Or the idea that Jesus was reacting, not to capitalism, but to dishonesty and exploitation? Regards, Shodan Or whatever you feel like responding to. Maybe you can get the thread to go the way you wanted. Or, perhaps not. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/33 "2005-07-12T20:16:01Z")
**Ex Machina** , calm down. You are in multiple religious discussions, at the moment, that include participation by Christians, Atheists, Jews, and some folks of unattested theological inclination, yet you are displaying a remarkable hostility to _everyone_. You are also not posting the clearest messages regarding your debate topics. Take some time to think through your theses. Post them in an organized and rational manner. _And omit the personal references about other posters._ Nothing you have posted has stepped over the line, yet, but your general hostility combined with your sometimes confusing posts are not making for good discussion. (Some smartass compared you to **Scott Plaid**. I am not going to allow such comments to become frequent additions to your threads, but the comment had enough truth to it that you might want to consider reading the thread [Scott Plaid, Stand Up or Shut Up](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=323762), not for the insults hurled at **Scott** , but for the nearly unanimous opinions of people both who support and who oppose his opinions that he is failing to clearly present his arguments. Your prose is less tortured, but you still need to make your points more clearly. You are also posting some fairly silly stuff: accusing **Liberal** of being a of “mob-man” or a “lyncher” on the **SDMB**? **Liberal**?) You have presented some stuff that is well worth discussing. Flaming out in a matter of weeks will not carry forward your points. This can be an enjoyable place, but it is easier to enjoy when the chip on your should weighs less than a ton. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/34 "2005-07-12T20:26:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You’re not sure either, eh? 😃 > > Any response to the “Paul isn’t authoritative unless he is” discrepancy? Or the idea that Jesus was reacting, not to capitalism, but to dishonesty and exploitation? Alright, let me see if i can figure out where you’re going with this. You’re thinking that because I don’t personally think much of Paul’s authority that I can’t cite it to people who do. Is that about right? So if you think basketball is a stupid game you can’t tell people what the rules are. I don’t think Paul is THE authority on Christianity. Only Jesus is. If there is contradiction then Jesus wins. But if I am talking to Pauline Christians about what they are to believe then I can cite Paul as their authority. The fact that you don’t play baseball does not exclude you from being an umpire. What was the other thing…oh yeah. All capitalism is dishonest and exploitative. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/35 "2005-07-12T20:49:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > you are displaying a remarkable hostility to _everyone_. … _And omit the personal references about other posters._ If you were honest and objective you would know, by reading the two threads I started, that I was attacked with personal references first. But I don’t expect you to be unbiased since your views conflict with mine. What really bothers you is my belief that theistic evolution is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/36 "2005-07-12T21:06:20Z")
I came in here to say something else about Luther, but clearly that is not the topic of this thread. And I don’t have **Shodan** ’s patience to figure out what the real debate is anymore, so nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/37 "2005-07-12T21:09:54Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > Alright, let me see if i can figure out where you’re going with this. > > You’re thinking that because I don’t personally think much of Paul’s authority that I can’t cite it to people who do. Is that about right? > > So if you think basketball is a stupid game you can’t tell people what the rules are. Well, not exactly. More like if we disagree on whether Bigfoot exists, you then provide a link to _The National Enquirer_. If you are going to argue from authority, then it would behoove you to cite authorities who are, well, authoritative. > [@Ex Machina](#): > > What was the other thing…oh yeah. All capitalism is dishonest and exploitative. OK, how about a cite, either from Jesus or Paul. I can start things off. “The laborer is worthy of his hire.” That’s from Jesus. The parable of the talents, where the rich man who symbolizes God criticizes the one who didn’t invest his talent with the bankers. I can give you online cites if you like. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/38 "2005-07-12T21:13:14Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > What really bothers you is my belief that theistic evolution is nonsense. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! On second thought, never mind. Methinks this debate might be a bit shorter than might otherwise be expected. Oh well. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/39 "2005-07-12T21:17:34Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > What really bothers you is my belief that theistic evolution is nonsense. Frankly, I was not even aware of your particular position on that topic. As a person who does not believe in God/god, I would not expect you to hold a position that favors Theistic Evolution. On the other hand, a very large number of people on this board do not believe in God, including a large number of posters who participate in evolution threads, and I do not have any trouble interacting with any of them. As long as my personal belief in Theistic Evolution is not used to interfere with their (and my) scientific knowledge, I cannot imagine a scenario in which I would exchange a cross word with any of them. What I do have trouble with is a poster who sees slights where there were challenges and responds with insults. This is the arena in which you are about to have a problem. As noted, I have not yet seen you cross the line, but your disposition is such that, having watched many posters over the years, I feel that you are about to trip. I had thought that a gentle bit of advice might suffice to get you to consider your posting style. If you are bringing your hostility to every discussion, I was, perhaps, wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856/40 "2005-07-13T00:00:37Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I came in here to say something else about Luther, but clearly that is not the topic of this thread. And I don’t have **Shodan** ’s patience to figure out what the real debate is anymore, so nevermind. By its fruit shall you know its name. It is heaven. It is hell. It is death. Life. Love. Hate. Darkness. Light. The Alpha. The Omega. It is the slow wit of your brain that blinds your eyes to sight. I fight hypocrisy because I am morally pure, and stand in a special place from which I can see. Look into the eyes of a child and you look into my eyes, for I am as the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ taught that we should make children suffer. “But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 19:14) Therefore it is child murderers who sit at the right hand of God. Hypocrite! If you are not willing to murder babies, why should you eat of the fruit of the tree? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-martin-luther-screw-up-christianity/311856.md?page=3)