(peeking out of my hidey hole)
Can we talk about Luther now?
I wonder if it’s more fair to blame Calvin, with his emphasis on the theology of grace and the total depravity of humanity, on the attitude expressed in the OP than it is to blame Luther?
Thats funny, but seriously, I’d like to.
I Confess a complete lack of knowledge in this area. It sounds like the church had become entirely corrupt and Luther tried to return to what he felt were the true principles of the gospel. I would hardly call that screwing up Christianity.
Even as screwed up as parts of Christianity still are it would seem that Luther’s willingness to question and challange the powers that be has led to a lot of other questioning down through the years that followed. This can only be a good thing.
Ex Machina, the suspension of posting priveleges is temporary, at this point, to prevent any anger at me causing you to do something that will incur a full banning. Contact an Administrator if you think I have been out of line.
From the brief Luther quotes here he seems fairly mild. The concept of humanity being somehow inherrently evil and depraved has always turned me off. That was Calvin?
In a nutshell.
I agree. But Ex Machina created a false dichotomy between serving Christ and protecting your children. He also contradicted himself by claiming on the one hand that Christ brought a sword for violence, and on the other hand that He taught pacifism. Ex Machina opened the doors through which I pushed my words.
Please note that the suspension of Ex Machina is no longer in force.
[ /Moderator Mode ]
Your points regarding the case of the adulterous woman indicates to me was that God (as Jesus) intervened to prevent the murder of the adulterous woman, so Christians (in following that example) are allowed to intervene to try to prevent evil acts. While Jesus did not teach that violence should be opposed by violence, neither did he prohibit Christians from using means other than violence to oppose violence, and in fact his examples of using words and actions to sway people away from evil deeds would support this. Christians are therefore not going contrary to Christ’s teachings when they promote good causes publically, raise money for good causes or to fight against injustice, lobby politicians, or go into politics or law themselves etc. So, to go back to one of your previous posts in this thread, Christians involving themselves in politics or law is not against Biblical teaching. Matt 10:27 " What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. "
I am not worthy of Christ regardless of if I love my family members more than him or not, because I am a sinner, according to Christian doctrine.
To answer your challenge: I have never been in that situation so this is hypothetical. I don’t think I would be capable of watching my child or my husband be murdered in my presence without trying to protect him, even if it meant sacrificing my life to do so or trying to verbally or physically dissuade the assailant(s). Despite being a person who sees resorting to violence as a moral failure, under those circumstances I think I could resort to violence if I could not come up with any other way to protect my loved ones.
Something I don’t miss since leaving the Catholic Church is that “I’m not worthy!” crap. I don’t know what Luther said about it (probably something grumpy–you’d never guess from his writings but he was said to be fun at parties; liked a nip or two and dirty jokes) but modern Lutherans don’t dwell on the worthiness thing. We accept it, realize there’s nothing we can do about it, and move on.
I’d be interested in hearing what Luther had to say on this subject as well. That whole thnig of us poor lowly filthy sin riddled humans thing seems to only hold us back and turns a whole lot of people off. I think the message of Christ about humility wasn’t that we aren’t worthy. It’s that none are more worthy than anyone else and that’s how we should treat each other. It seems to me we still haven’t figured that one out. Too many religions teach a subtle version of “yes we love everyone, but we’re God’s favorite’s” " we worship correctly, we have the truest beliefs, others are still lost in sin and not really God’s children until they join our particular club." Some are not even that subtle. Their spiritual beliefs amount to “God loves us and the rest of you suck”
I see it as we are all God’s children and that is the reality of our being. Most of us don’t have a complete understanding of what that means and don’t communicate with our “father” to our full potential. If we are to do so then we must learn to act as if all men are the children of God as Jesus instructed. It’s easy when they’re a member of our own little group or have a fish bumper sticker. Much more challenging with others.
I’m not self-flagellating with the “I’m not worthy” statement. I was merely trying to point out that even if a person were to choose God over their family, that that would not make them worthy of God. Christian doctrine (as I was taught it, anyway) is pretty clear on the idea that salvation is a gift, not something that one can earn. I agree with you, dropzone , it is something that is to be accepted and not dwelt upon.
I apologize if I seemed to think your were. I was remarking on the attitude you described, a common one in my former faith.
Yet though I agree with you that is something Jesus tells us we must do.
I don’t think Jesus is saying don’t love your sisters and brothers mothers and fathers. I think he is saying you can’t put what your family wants and what your family thinks ahead of God. We can see in contempoary society that people are pressured by the feeling of family obligations to do certain things. If your worship is directed by your parents tradition instead of your relationship with God then what good is it. If you compromise your beliefs in order to provide nice things for your wife and kids then what have you really gained. Family can make certain demands on you from some feeling of “we’re family and this is what’s expected of you if you love us” Jesus is saying seek God’s love and to do God’s will above all else. Ultimately that is whats best for those you love, even if they can’t see it.
The only damned souls in this world are those who “frustrate the grace of God” by counting on their works to justify them, or as proof that they are justified. This insults the work of Christ on the Cross, and does despite unto the grace of God.
Mike Schroeder
Pastor/teacher
Amazing Grace Bible Study Fellowship
Interesting. The Faith *of *Chirst . I’m not sure I nuderstand the difference but I’ll think about it.
I am aware of all those scriptures you mention that indicate we are saved by grace, and faith. I’m wondering how you reconcile the many scriptures that indeicate that we will be rewarded according to our works or deeds.
! Peter 1:17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear
MAt 16: 27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may *receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
*
Rev 20:12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
and of course James 2:24 you see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
I hear this book was almost left out of the bible because of this kind of passage.
Mat 7:16You will know them by their fruits. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven
John 3:21
But he who* does the truth* comes to the light, that *his deeds may be clearly seen, *that they have been done in God."
How do you reconcile all theses scriptures with the ones that indicate we are saved by faith?
There is a simple answer to this, and it’s based on what Paul wrote in his second letter to Timothy:
**“Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” ** (2 Timothy 2:15)
The charge-- in order to be approved-- here is to study the truth by rightly dividing it. The word divide comes from the Greek, “orthotomeo,” which literally means to: “straightly cut or dissect” (Strong’s).
To me, this says there are divisions in Scripture that need to be recognized in order to get at the vital truth of it. Traditionally, folks have only recognized two: Old and New Testaments (Covenants), and, to support this, all published Bibles are divided into these two. Although these are legitimate divisions, you cannot find your truth (for direct obedience) by these divisions and here is why: They are both written to the Nation Israel. Traditional teaching–whether Catholic or Protestant–has, since the second century, identified the Christian Church as New Testament Israel, and claimed the marching orders (doctrine) for this church to be everything from Matthew through Revelation. My contention is we aren’t in the New Testament. What we’re in is what Paul identified as "the dispensation of the grace of God." (Eph. 3:2; Col. 1:25); Wherein God is saving individuals,–by grace–into a spiritual entity Paul refers to as **“the body of Christ.” ** This “body,” referred to, as such, four times in Paul’s epistles (Rom. 7:4; 1 Co. 10:16; 12:27; 4:12), is part of a mystery, which Paul claims to have been “hid in God…since the world began.” ** (Rom. 16:25; 1 Co. 2:7; Eph. 3:3,9; Col. 1:26) If this is true, then it couldn’t be in the four “gospels.”
Paul’s mystery is the grace dispensation, a parenthetical between the testaments. This is where we are presently, and where we’ve been for going on 2000 years. The body of Christ, the "fellowship of the mystery" (Eph. 3:9), the "one new man,"(Eph. 2:15) is the entity into which all believers are being saved. The operative message for this dispensation is what Paul referred to as “the gospel of Christ.” (12 references to it in Paul’s epistles), not **“the gospel of the kingdom”(**Matt. 4:23) the Lord and his disciples preached in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the first half of Acts, and the Hebrew epistles (Heb thru Rev), from where you drew all your references. When closely examined, the differences between the two are substantial.
The gospel of the kingdom is a “works” salvation message. The terms of salvation in this gospel are: 1 confess sins (Matt. 3:6; 1 john 1:9); 2. repent of sins (Matt 3:2; Mk 1:15; Acts 2:38; 3:19); 3. be baptized (Acts 2:38); 2. sell all (Matt. 19:21; Lk 18:22; Acts 2:45); endure unto the end (no waivering) to be saved. (Matt. 24:13; Mk. 13:13; Acts 10:35; 1 Peter 1:13) In other words, in this gospel, salvation is the reward at the end of a faithfully lived life.
The gospel of Christ is: “Christ died for our sins…was buried…was raised the third day…for our justification…believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.” (1 Co. 15:1-4; Rom. 4:25; Acts 13:38,39; 16:31) This gospel is exclusive to Paul’s revelation, and–in contrast to the kingdom gospel-- excludes works as a part of the the formula. (Rom. 3:19; 4:5,6; 11:6; Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5)
Moreover, once one has believed, salvation cannot be removed as a result of sin or sinning (1 Co. 3:10-15; 2 Cor. 1:22; Gal. Eph. 1:14, 30; 2 Tim. 2:11-13), which is definitely not the case with the kingdom gospel (Acts 5:1-11; Heb. 6:4-6; James 2:10)
Works in the kingdom gospel are unto salvation; under the grace gospel they are unto rewards. The great error of the religious establishment–which includes Luther–is it insists on mingling these two obviously different messages. This is because 2 Timothy 2:15 is either ignored completely, or explained away. (check out what new Bible version do with this verse)
I appreciate your inquiry. I hope this has been helpful.
Are you saying Paul taught a different salvation than Jesus did? Your use of that verse in 2 Tim is one possible explaination. There is no clear indication that he was seperating grace and works the way you have done. In fact in that same chapter Paul speaks of the need to change and life and exhibit the qualities of love and patience.
Your conclusion about the hidden mysteries Paul speaks of not being in the gospels illogical. Why wouldn’t it be contained in the gospels? Doesn’t PAul say the mysteries revealed by the spirit to the saints. Wouldn’t that include the authors of the NT who wrote through inspiration?
Two statements I don’t understand. First from your previous post.
and from your second post.
What are you saying. That deeds don’t matter once you have accepted Jesus. Paul’s writing in Timothy suggests otherwise. If our sins are forgiven under grace then where is the line drawn? Can we do anything we want to and it’s forgiven?
The passages I quoted talk about the end of time and coming before Christ to be judged according to our deeds. They indicate that all people will be judged that way not just some. Are you saying judgement is different in the dispensation of grace time than what Jesus spoke of, or that he was reffering to a certain group rather than all mankind?
If there is a distinct difference between Paul’s doctrine and that of the other Apostles and more importantly Jesus then I might consider what others have suggested about Paul being someone who altered what Jesus taught .
[
No. What I’m saying is that Paul preached a different gospel from what the earthly Jesus preached.
Here, in a nutshell, is Paul’s gospel: 1. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, resurrected from the dead. Paul refers to this as the **“gospel of God”**in Romans 1:1-4; This is foundational to his gospel and the kingdom gospel. 2. He (Christ) died for our sins…was buried…was raised again the third day…for our justification. (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Romans 4:25); and 3. anyone, in the covenants of promise or outside of them, can be saved eternally, and be bound for heaven by believing numbers 1 & 2.
Number 1 is not a mystery. We can find this truth in the gospels, Peter’s and John’s epistles, in the first part of the Acts. The mystery is in numbers 2 & 3. Jesus never said he came to die for our (Gentiles) sins. He said to a Gentile woman, that he came "not but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."(Matt. 15:24) Everybody Peter, James and John are addressing in the Acts and in their epistles are part of “the 12 Tribes.” All of these scriptures (the gospels and Hebrew epistles)are to, for and about Israel in the New Covenant, which is yet to come. The forming of the “New Nation,” by the kingdom gospel, in the first part of Acts gave way to Paul and the forming of the body of Christ, by the gospel of Christ. Notice that Paul supplants Peter as the central figure of the Acts after chapter 15.
The bottom line is this: Jesus Christ did the work in the gospels to pay for our sins, then from heaven chose Paul (Saul), his chief enemy (1 Tim. 1:16), and gave him the message that explains what the work of the cross provided for us on the outside looking in. It couldn’t be revealed while he (Jesus) was earthbound, because had Satan (through his emmissaries: “the princes of this world”) known this (the mystery) he wouldn’t have had him crucified.
Here are several references that clearly say he was doing exactly that:
**Rom 3:20-21
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(KJV)
Rom 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(KJV)
Rom 3:28
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(KJV)
Rom 4:4-5
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(KJV)
Rom 4:6
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(KJV)
Rom 6:14
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(KJV)
Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(KJV)
Rom 7:6
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
(KJV)
Rom 10:4
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
(KJV)
Rom 11:6
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
(KJV)
Gal 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(KJV)
Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(KJV)
Titus 3:5-6
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
(KJV)**
Sure the other apostles new about the mystery. But only after it was revealed to them through Paul. According to Galatians 1, Paul says he got it from the Lord by revelation. According to Ephl 3:2, he says it was given to him exclusively.
I am not saying our deeds (behavior) dont matter. I’m saying they aren’t a part of the salvation equation. (See above passages) Paul’s epistles are split between promises and exhortation. The first always precedes the second, because it is the foundation upon which the works must be built.
Yes, and yes.
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If there is a distinct difference between Paul’s doctrine and that of the other Apostles and more importantly Jesus then I might consider what others have suggested about Paul being someone who altered what Jesus taught .
[/QUOTE[/QUOTE]
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Believe this or not:
Paul’s mystery was given to him by Jesus Christ (from heaven); It could not be revealed until Israel had been offered and rejected the kingdom by the 12 (Peter, James and John, et. al.)–this is because of God’s promise to Abraham and his seed (Israel); Once Israel was set aside as the chosen people of God, the dispensation of grace (the mystery), and all that is included in it, the least of which is not salvation by grace through faith, could be revealed by His chosen emmissary, Paul, to the entire world.
Let me tell you why this is so hard to swallow: It is because we --most of us–are programed to believe something contrary to it, and that progaming–which has been passed down for almost 2000 years–dies hard.
If you are interested in going into this more thoroughly I would reccomend a book titled: “Things That Differ,” by C.R. Stam. I hope to have my own book out before the end of the year. Its title is “85 pages in the Bible…” Keep an eye out for it.
. Interesting approach.
Paul’s gospel seems to be the basic doctrine {with some variations} that most Protestant churches teach.Am I right? The difference that I see is that you are saying Paul brought this to us after the message of the 12 was rejected? BTW I don’t agree with your literal interpertation of Mat 15:24. Later in that chapter Jesus commended the womans faith and healed her daughter even though she was a gentile.
So it was being kept secret from Satan? Any scripture references to back up that theory?
I don’t think these scriptures are conclusive for your arguement. They seem to be refering to the OT Jewish law and the NT changes brought by JC. I’ll need some time to examine them. I’m going on vacation Sunday morning. I’ll be doing some reading while I’m gone.
I see nothing in Eph. 3 to indicate that this was given to Paul exclusivly. Instead he says
- To me this seems to refer to the promise Jesus made that we would all be guided by the Comforter into all truth. I see nothing to indicate this was given to Paul exclusively to bring to the rest of the world.
From your answers I guess you believe that all the passages I mentioned all refer to a judgement of the Jews only that will take place at the end of time seperatly from the judgement from those under Paul’s teaching of grace. As far as scriptures are concerned you haven’t made your case.
Your appraoach is a little different and this part I totally agree with.
I call it tradition vs. the truth. Interpertations and beliefs that have been handed down as the divine truth which are no more than the teachings of men. One of the biggest problems I see is the belief that God wrote the bible or the variations of that of that belief. The idea that the bible as we have it was somehow part of God’s divine plan to guide us has no foundation other than Christian traditon. My own belief is that Jesus taught us to rely on personal comunion with God through the Holy Spirit.
In
I think Jesus was teaching us that personal revelation and comunion with God through the Holy Spirit {as Paul spoke of in the scriptures you mentioned} is available to all of us and the source of our salvation.
Your take on it is different but just another interpertation among the possibile interpertations. I’d need more evidence to be convinced.