# Did Marx or Lenin Really Believe in Any of That Crap? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463 "2011-03-30T03:19:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/21 "2011-03-30T13:33:33Z")
According to the doctrine, Communism is a natural consequences of industrialization and will emerge when the capitalist system becomes too top-heavy to support itself. It is an outgrowth of industrialized capitalism, and thus can’t be rushed along. Think about how hunter-gatherers eventually became too dense and thus game became scarse, so they started more intensive settled agriculture. The transition is something like that. Every country that has tried “Communism” has been a pre-industrialized economy with more in common with feudalism than market capitalism. That’s like the hunter-gatherers suddenly deciding to form full-on kingdoms with a feudal system. You can’t just leapfrog like that. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/22 "2011-03-30T13:38:26Z")
A few misconceptions in this thread. First, Marx was an economic historian-he believed that “Commnism” was an inevitable evolutionary stage of post-capitalism. He thoght that he had discovered “laws” of history…so, most certainly, he did believe in communism. Lenin was a ruthless man who realized that Marxism was not working in Russia-so he was determined to FORCE people to adopt it. That is why he wasn’t adverse to killing people to achieve what he saw as commnism. I believe that Lenin did have some semblance of a conscience-at the end of his life he realized how brutal his revolution had been. Stalin was just a tyrant-he saw the whole apparatus of the Soviet government as something that was his to control personally. Lives meant nothing to him-he engineered the Ukrainian famine (that killed over 4 milion people), and made war on Finland, became an ally of Germany and then (when Hitler turned on him) switched sides, and engaged in new wars (Korea). Neither Lenin nor Stalin had any illusions-they knew that Russia (under their brand of “communism”) was far behind the west-they attributed this to “insufficient class consciousness” in the Russian people. ---
**Author:** ![Profound\_Gibberish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Profound\_Gibberish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profound_Gibberish)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/23 "2011-03-30T14:36:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The comparison of communism and libertarianism is a good one; both are utopian ideologies that in order to work as advertised would require people to consistently act in ways that violate human nature and possess greater than human capabilities. Amen, brother! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/24 "2011-03-30T18:58:11Z")
> [@jinty](#): > > Communism was basically an attempt to cure the problems of “social misery” present in 19th-century industrialised society. It was an ill-fated attempt to be sure (and a perfect case of the cure being worse than the disease), but the problem it was trying to cure was real enough. Engels has been mentioned upthread - he was one of the first to document the plight of the urban poor in his book [The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Condition_of_the_Working_Class_in_England_in_1844). It’s an interesting, albeit grim, read, and it might help you understand where “that crap” came from. It didn’t come from a world of Starbucks and digital TV, but one where infant mortality approached 50%, and workers were treated like cattle. Or, as one of my professors said in college, Marx indentified the problem perfectly – but his solution was a bunch of bullshit. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/25 "2011-03-30T19:23:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > True. However, there’s an important difference; Capitalism works just fine (in fact it works better) when there are a lot of people not acting according to its tenets. Communism on the other hand works worse. Not sure I follow. Will you expand on this further? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/26 "2011-03-30T19:38:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Not sure I follow. > > Will you expand on this further? Well, some examples. People even in capitalistic societies help each other without charging for it all the time, in the process making society run more smoothly. People set out on charitable causes or social crusades that don’t profit them but do profit society. People in Communistic societies however tend to lack enthusiasm for their work since there’s no incentive to do well. And when handed totalitarian power they use it in the abusive fashion you’d expect of humans instead of acting as dispassionate overseers of the needs of society. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/27 "2011-03-30T19:48:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Well, some examples. People even in capitalistic societies help each other without charging for it all the time, in the process making society run more smoothly. People set out on charitable causes or social crusades that don’t profit them but do profit society. > > People in Communistic societies however tend to lack enthusiasm for their work since there’s no incentive to do well. And when handed totalitarian power they use it in the abusive fashion you’d expect of humans instead of acting as dispassionate overseers of the needs of society. Wouldn’t a non-profit in a Capitalist society suffer the same issues of lack of enthusiasm that a Communist society does? We are talking ideology here so if working for the common good fails for Communism why would it work for non-profits doing the same thing? As for using power in an abusive fashion I do not think that is unique to Communism. People in power under any system tend to do that as much as they are able. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/28 "2011-03-30T19:49:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Then you can’t deny the fact that the Soviets \*tried \*to implement Communism, and that it’s telling that they couldn’t even do that. You know you have a problem if your system can’t even reach the test stage. Well, not really. The Soviets failed to implement it in part because half the governments of the world were determined to see them fail. If the American Revolution had failed because the French crown realized it ought to support its fellow monarch, would we be talking about how the founders’ ideology was wrong? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/29 "2011-03-30T19:52:37Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Besides being a stone cold ruthless son of a bitch…yeah, I think Lenin was a true believer. You can’t fake that sort of passion. Of course, Hitler was a true believer in National Socialism, and absolutely believed every word he wrote in his books as well, so… I suspect you may be right about Lenin, but Hitler a true believer in _Nazionalsozialismus_? Maybe after he rewrote it to match _Mein Kampf._ Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/30 "2011-03-30T19:52:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, not really. The Soviets failed to implement it in part because half the governments of the world were determined to see them fail. If the American Revolution had failed because the French crown realized it ought to support its fellow monarch, would we be talking about how the founders’ ideology was wrong? The victors write the history books so probably. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/31 "2011-03-30T20:03:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, not really. The Soviets failed to implement it in part because half the governments of the world were determined to see them fail. How did the rest of the world keep them from implementing Communism, at least after the Civil War was over? They certainly wanted to see the Communists fail, but the Communists wanted to see the capitalist nations fail also. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/32 "2011-03-30T20:07:21Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Wouldn’t a non-profit in a Capitalist society suffer the same issues of lack of enthusiasm that a Communist society does? We are talking ideology here so if working for the common good fails for Communism why would it work for non-profits doing the same thing? > > As for using power in an abusive fashion I do not think that is unique to Communism. People in power under any system tend to do that as much as they are able. A lot of charity work in capitalist societies is funded by the surplus money of capitalists. Sometimes it is just from the goodness of their hearts, sometimes it is from shame from how they treated people on the way up. Carnegie, Rockefeller, Ford, Gates, etc. That seems to be a more successful model than everyone working for the common good all the time - supposedly. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/33 "2011-03-30T20:11:12Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > According to the doctrine, Communism is a natural consequences of industrialization and will emerge when the capitalist system becomes too top-heavy to support itself. It is an outgrowth of industrialized capitalism, and thus can’t be rushed along. Think about how hunter-gatherers eventually became too dense and thus game became scarse, so they started more intensive settled agriculture. The transition is something like that. > > Every country that has tried “Communism” has been a pre-industrialized economy with more in common with feudalism than market capitalism. That’s like the hunter-gatherers suddenly deciding to form full-on kingdoms with a feudal system. You can’t just leapfrog like that. The problem being that capitalist societies found much better ways to deal with the real problems Marx (and others) saw. The social welfare that the right hates inoculates us against Communism. If Hoover got re-elected in 1932, who knows what could have happened? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/34 "2011-03-30T20:19:56Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Wouldn’t a non-profit in a Capitalist society suffer the same issues of lack of enthusiasm that a Communist society does? We are talking ideology here so if working for the common good fails for Communism why would it work for non-profits doing the same thing? First, because the non-profits can in essence “skim off” the minority of enthusiasts while the self interested people do the rest of the work that keep society running. And second, because they are normally doing tasks that are more likely to generate enthusiasm in the first place. People can whip up selfless enthusiasm for feeding the poor and helping the sick a lot easier than they can for making random widgets in a factory or harvesting wheat. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > As for using power in an abusive fashion I do not think that is unique to Communism. People in power under any system tend to do that as much as they are able. But the nature of communism _necessitates_ that people be given that sort of power. You can’t have a planned economy without someone doing the planning. And you can’t keep people from doing self interested things for profit without some sort of enforcement mechanism. And so on. Note that communal style living works _much_ better on a small scale with people who are on the whole more dedicated to the welfare of the group - such as a family. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/35 "2011-03-30T20:41:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > First, because the non-profits can in essence “skim off” the minority of enthusiasts while the self interested people do the rest of the work that keep society running. And second, because they are normally doing tasks that are more likely to generate enthusiasm in the first place. People can whip up selfless enthusiasm for feeding the poor and helping the sick a lot easier than they can for making random widgets in a factory or harvesting wheat. That is fine but in a _pure_ capitalist society do you expect there will be a lot to “skim” off? Further, we are talking about the operation of the society as a whole. I think a pure capitalist society will be as dysfunctional as pure communist society would…albeit in different ways. Perhaps some will be patrons of the arts and donate or feed some of the poor but the society as a whole will not be functional. > [@](#): > > But the nature of communism _necessitates_ that people be given that sort of power. You can’t have a planned economy without someone doing the planning. And you can’t keep people from doing self interested things for profit without some sort of enforcement mechanism. And so on. Again, a pure capitalist society will have people with power and while not running a “planned” economy will just as surely screw the system up. Forget innovation…you’ll have one car in any color you like as long as it is black under pure capitalism as you would under pure communism. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/36 "2011-03-30T21:05:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Well, some examples. People even in capitalistic societies help each other without charging for it all the time, in the process making society run more smoothly. People set out on charitable causes or social crusades that don’t profit them but do profit society. > > People in Communistic societies however tend to lack enthusiasm for their work since there’s no incentive to do well. And when handed totalitarian power they use it in the abusive fashion you’d expect of humans instead of acting as dispassionate overseers of the needs of society. What’s anti-capitalistic about charities or people helping each other without charging for it? ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/37 "2011-03-30T22:13:46Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That is fine but in a _pure_ capitalist society do you expect there will be a lot to “skim” off? Further, we are talking about the operation of the society as a whole. I think a pure capitalist society will be as dysfunctional as pure communist society would…albeit in different ways. Perhaps some will be patrons of the arts and donate or feed some of the poor but the society as a whole will not be functional. > > Again, a pure capitalist society will have people with power and while not running a “planned” economy will just as surely screw the system up. Forget innovation…you’ll have one car in any color you like as long as it is black under pure capitalism as you would under pure communism. “Pure” is not a very precise descriptor in this type of thing. For capitalism, it would be better to say that a completely unregulated market system would not be stable in large scale. All sorts of systems (moneyless communism, unregulated capitalism, complete anarchy) are workable in small self selecting groups but not possible in large groups. From everything I have seen and read it has to do with our inability to consider only a limited number of people as individuals. Once people become faceless, individuals have a harder time putting the needs of others on par with those of themselves and their immediate circle. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What’s anti-capitalistic about charities or people helping each other without charging for it? A better statement is that is non-capitalistic as profits are not the driver of allocation of resources. Capitalism does not oppose charity or altruism, but charity can rarely be described as capitalistic. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/38 "2011-03-30T22:37:25Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That is fine but in a _pure_ capitalist society do you expect there will be a lot to “skim” off? What makes you think there won’t be? Just as there are plenty of self interested people in a communistic society, there are plenty of altruistic people in a capitalist society. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Again, a pure capitalist society will have people with power and while not running a “planned” economy will just as surely screw the system up. Forget innovation…you’ll have one car in any color you like as long as it is black under pure capitalism as you would under pure communism. What you are ignoring is that there are capitalistic societies that aren’t the tyrannical capitalism you are speaking of. You don’t need to _force_ people to look out for their own self interest; you just need to keep them from exploiting each other in the process. Tyranny is not a _necessity_ for capitalism; it is for communism. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What’s anti-capitalistic about charities or people helping each other without charging for it? Capitalism is about profit, period. Empathy, pity, compassion and ethics of any kind are un-capitalistic impulses. As is any concern for the welfare of society. A true capitalist is going to either be a psychopath or trying hard to imitate one; that’s one reason psychopaths tend to prosper in our society. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/39 "2011-03-30T22:51:41Z")
Well, I think that’s fairly ridiculous. I think that capitalism v. communism only has to do with how the economy is organized and resources are allocated on a society-wide basis, not how people’s personal lives are organized or how they feel individually about other people. Sure both systems will probably have follow-on psychological effects, but to describe charity itself as anti-capitalistic is taking it too far. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463/40 "2011-03-30T23:08:54Z")
To get back to the OP, I think the evidence is very strong that early communists really did believe what they were espousing. Most of them, after all, did not get any advantages from being identified as communists, so why would they have faked it? It was only after communist regimes were established that there was any point in pretending to be a communist for personal advantage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-marx-or-lenin-really-believe-in-any-of-that-crap/576463.md?page=3)