# Did McCain make up the "cross in the dirt" POW story? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455 "2008-08-18T18:27:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/1 "2008-08-18T18:27:55Z")
I think this deserves its own thread. If you’re not familiar with the story, [here’s a McCain political ad recounting it](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WTu7drLfRc). He has told this story many times, though the recent Rick Warren forum brought it back to the forefront again. There are several reasons to believe that McCain is indulging in some historical revisionism, fabricating an anecdote with overtly religious overtones that (one might surmise) would help him with the Christian evangelical vote, which has had a hard time getting enthusiastic about his candidacy in GOP circles. The evidence: (A) The earliest recorded instance of this story is in McCain’s co-written book _Flags of Our Fathers_. The earliest Nexis story dates to 2000. [(cite)](http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/the-dirt-in-the.html). This dovetails nicely with the start of McCain’s first, failed run for the Oval Office. That these are the earliest incidents of the story would not be so unusual if his captivity had not been already so thoroughly recounted. McCain’s lengthy account in [U.S. News & World Report](http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/01/28/john-mccain-prisoner-of-war-a-first-person-account.html?PageNr=1), published in 1973, doesn’t include the incident. It’s also not included in the book [The Nightgale’s Song](http://www.amazon.com/Nightingales-Song-Robert-Timberg/dp/0684826739/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product) ([cite](http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2008/08/more-evidence-that-mccains-cross-in.html)), which was published as late as 1995 and specifically dealt with Christmas-in-captivity stories (including McCain’s). (B) The story is similar in a few critical details to one told by the late Alexander Solzhenitsyn in [The Gulag Archipelago](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/17/122230/161/239/569299): > [@](#): > > Along with other prisoners, he worked in the fields day after day, in rain and sun, during summer and winter. His life appeared to be nothing more than backbreaking labor and slow starvation. The intense suffering reduced him to a state of despair. > > On one particular day, the hopelessness of his situation became too much for him. He saw no reason to continue his struggle, no reason to keep on living. His life made no difference in the world. So he gave up. > > Leaving his shovel on the ground, he slowly walked to a crude bench and sat down. He knew that at any moment a guard would order him to stand up, and when he failed to respond, the guard would beat him to death, probably with his own shovel. He had seen it happen to other prisoners. > > As he waited, head down, he felt a presence. Slowly he looked up and saw a skinny old prisoner squat down beside him. The man said nothing. Instead, he used a stick to trace in the dirt the sign of the Cross. The man then got back up and returned to his work. > > As Solzhenitsyn stared at the Cross drawn in the dirt his entire perspective changed. He knew he was only one man against the all-powerful Soviet empire. Yet he knew there was something greater than the evil he saw in the prison camp, something greater than the Soviet Union. He knew that hope for all people was represented by that simple Cross. Through the power of the Cross, anything was possible. > > Solzhenitsyn slowly rose to his feet, picked up his shovel, and went back to work. Outwardly, nothing had changed. Inside, he had received hope. This story, from a best-selling book, is hardly an obscure one. Ex-Watergater Chuck Colson included the story in his book [Loving God](http://www.amazon.com/Loving-God-Charles-W-Colson/dp/0310219140/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219081859&sr=8-1), and that book recounts how the story made the rounds in evangelical circles (including Rev. Billy Graham’s telecast) and political functions (a Reagan prayer breakfast) in the 1970s. McCain himself appeared on [Meet the Press](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8245636) in 2005 and wrote [an obituary](http://www.nysun.com/opinion/solzhenitsyn-at-work/83117/) of Solzhenitsyn just two weeks ago, citing his familiarity with that book specifically both times. (C) Contradictions in the story have arisen over time. In the original _Flags_ recounting, the action was done with the guard’s shoe, but more recently, McCain claims it was with a stick. In a separate incident, where a guard allowed him to rest after being forced to stand uninterrupted for a prolonged period, McCain described him in the _U.S. News_ story as “the only real human being that I ever met over there”. But the cross incident happened months later in a different facility. Was this the same guard, transferred along with him? Or must we question “the only real human being” comment, if McCain’s cross story is true? McCain has also [revised](http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/08/the-ever-changing-crossinthedi.html) his description of his friendly captor over the years. And he has had [other anecdotes](http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/in-pennsylvania.html) of his imprisonment contradict themselves in politically expedient situations. So, do you think McCain made the story up (or perhaps even convinced himself over time that it happened in actuality)? If so, should it matter (particularly in light of the Swiftboating of John Kerry’s Vietnam experiences four years ago)? Given that such an anecdote is inherently unprovable, should the MSM pursue a story that many might consider political dynamite? If this does build up steam in the press, what should the McCain campaign do about it? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/2 "2008-08-18T18:34:06Z")
The only people who would possibly view “unfalsifiable” as a valid argument are already anti-McCain, and all his supporters will claim that doubters of the story are unpatriotic, flag-burning America-haters. I don’t see this as a net vote-gainer for Obama. If he’s smart, he won’t touch this with a stick. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/3 "2008-08-18T18:36:06Z")
_Or_ a shoe. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/4 "2008-08-18T18:40:42Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy] So, do you think McCain made the story up… [/QUOTE] Certainly not, the story is every bit as real as the one about him under interrogation, naming the starting lineup and defensive line of the Green Bay Packers or the Pittsburgh Steelers. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/5 "2008-08-18T18:41:37Z")
Probably, not that it will matter. There are far better examples of McCain’s loose relationship with reality for the pro-Obama side and the pro-McCain side will never be convinced. Those in the middle won’t know what to think and just ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/6 "2008-08-18T18:43:42Z")
Along with everything you listed, we can add the fact that McCain also altered other POW stories to better tailor them to specific audiences and that he has a laundry list of demonstrable, bald-faced lies in his background. I thin the cross story is suspect at best. I can’t prove it’s false, but I don’t buy it. I also don’t buy the Packers story anymore either. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/7 "2008-08-18T18:52:58Z")
The real question is, what could you possibly do to ward off the harm that comes after McCain, tight-lipped and with a steely patriotic glint in his eye, asks “Vas you dere, Sharlie?” The more holes we can point out in this story (and I’m starting to doubt that McCain ever served a day in uniform at this point), the more votes McCain gets from it. ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/8 "2008-08-18T18:55:27Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] The real question is, what could you possibly do to ward off the harm that comes after McCain, tight-lipped and with a steely patriotic glint in his eye, asks “Vas you dere, Sharlie?” The more holes we can point out in this story (and I’m starting to doubt that McCain ever served a day in uniform at this point), the more votes McCain gets from it. [/QUOTE] Seriously? Did you also know that Obama is a Muslim and a communist? ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/9 "2008-08-18T18:58:51Z")
“If it’s not true, it’s a great story.” Welp, you guys that wanted Reagan again- looks like you got him. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/10 "2008-08-18T19:10:24Z")
We went over this in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=479665&page=2) current thread already, as a result of his recounting the story in the recent forum he held with Obama (not that you can’t start a seperate thread about it, just wanted to link to the other one for reference). My conclusion from that thread: > [@me](#): > > Of course its not totally impossible that the guard was transfered with him. And it’s not impossible that said guard happened to be a Catholic member of the anti-Catholic NVA, in North Vietnam, which most Christians had fled when the Communists took over. Or that McCain simply never mentioned the story before '99, despite having discussed the actions of the merciful guard in his earlier accounts, or that the stories similarity to that of Solzhenitsyn’s is coincidence. Not impossible, but it certainly has enough going against it that my bullshit detector is pegged. I doubt we’ll ever no for certain. Hell, given what I imagine McCain’s mental state was during some of his times in the POW prisons, it’s not impossible that he doesn’t even know if it happened for certain. In anycase, I doubt it will make a difference in the election, no reporter is going to start grilling McCain over nitpicky details of his horrific experiences during the war, so most of the electorate won’t even hear about the inconsistencies. Still, if it is false (and I do think that’s the case), it is a little sad McCain feels the need to tack on a rather cheesy Christmas fable onto the already quite inspiring true story of his POW experience. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/11 "2008-08-18T19:18:21Z")
Wow. I was prepared to come in here and say that, while it’s very similar to the Gulag Archipelago story, it still could have happened as McCain described. (It’d be bizarre, but there are enough Christians and enough dirt in the world that it could be true.) Based on what I’m reading here I have to conclude that this probably didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/12 "2008-08-18T19:18:35Z")
Sometimes I think people just don’t hold politicians to anything like a normal standard of factual reliability. When Reagan was president, he told a heartwarming story that actually came from a movie. People thought it was a charming quirk. ETA: People who already liked him thought it was a charming quirk, and to the rest of us, it didn’t change anything. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/13 "2008-08-18T20:06:21Z")
I don’t know why you’re so disbelieving of McCain: Christian symbols in the dirt go right back to the early days of Christianity. So Solzhenitsyn’s experience was by no means original. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/14 "2008-08-18T20:20:07Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] I don’t know why you’re so disbelieving of McCain: Christian symbols in the dirt go right back to the early days of Christianity. So Solzhenitsyn’s experience was by no means original. [/QUOTE] How about the fact that he’s changed details, and that he never told the story at all until 1999? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/15 "2008-08-18T20:33:58Z")
“My friends, Senator Obama would have you believe that there wasn’t any dirt on the floor on the prison cell I spent five long years in, and maybe that my prison guard was unaware of my devout Christianity. How does Senator Obama come to know this? I’m sure he wasn’t there, never saw or spoke to the guard I told you all about last Christmas-time. Maybe Senator Obama’s just naive. Maybe he says he believes what’s convenient, or politically expedient for him to say. Maybe he’s simply misunderstanding my simple story’s meaning, as he misunderstands so much about the complicated world we all live in. I don’t know, my friends. I simply do not know which explanation fits the best, but I do know this–I suffered in prison for all those years and I persevered, because of my faith in Jesus and my love of the American flag, which Senator Obama, a well-intentioned and good-hearted young man, never had to do. I’m John McCain and I approve this message.” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/16 "2008-08-18T20:35:39Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] How about the fact that he’s changed details, [/quote] I’m sorry, but I don’t see the link **Archiveguy** posted as a change. > [@](#): > > and that he never told the story at all until 1999? Why is that a problem? As I said, the sign in the dirt goes back almost two millennia. It’s scarcely a new idea. Beyond that, I’m sure there’s lots about his life he has yet to relate, if only in his post-Presidential memoirs. And bluntly, is it really going to help him? This election is Obama’s to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/17 "2008-08-18T20:36:40Z")
Obama can’t and won’t call bullshit on McCain’s POW stories but I can and will. I bet he sang like a little choir girl under interrogation and served enthusiastically as a fuck boy for the guards. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/18 "2008-08-18T20:40:38Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] I’m sorry, but I don’t see the link **Archiveguy** posted as a change. Why is that a problem? As I said, the sign in the dirt goes back almost two millennia. It’s scarcely a new idea. Beyond that, I’m sure there’s lots about his life he has yet to relate, if only in his post-Presidential memoirs. And bluntly, is it really going to help him? This election is Obama’s to lose. [/QUOTE] This is exactly the kind of thing the Republicans would be running with if it happened to Obama. It would be the number one talking point of the day on every right-wing radio show and the McCain camp would probably already have an ad out about it. “See, he makes up phony stories to make you think he’s a Christian when he’s really not!” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/19 "2008-08-18T20:41:06Z")
Anthony Boucher used a variant on the story in _The Quest for Saint Aquin_, in 1951\*. I first read it in _The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, Vol. 1_, back in high school (1973, I think). \*Soldiers looking for Christians stopped a priest on the road. While he’s trying to remember where he put his travel papers (right hand to his head to think about it, hand to breast pocket, then to left then right shoulder to probe for them), one of the soldiers draws a fish with his shoe. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Obama can’t and won’t call bullshit on McCain’s POW stories but I can and will. I bet he sang like a little choir girl under interrogation and served enthusiastically as a fuck boy for the guards. Now you’re just being pissy, **Dio**. I can’t see that as helping us. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/20 "2008-08-18T20:47:32Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Obama can’t and won’t call bullshit on McCain’s POW stories but I can and will. I bet he sang like a little choir girl under interrogation and served enthusiastically as a fuck boy for the guards. [/QUOTE] Read your first sentence; then read your second sentence. You have met the enemy and they is you. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455.md?page=2)