# Did McCain make up the "cross in the dirt" POW story? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455 "2008-08-18T18:27:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/61 "2008-08-19T15:27:53Z")
Cross story probably not true and almost certainly not something worth pursuing by Obama or even his supporters. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/62 "2008-08-19T15:47:38Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] Cross story probably not true and almost certainly not something worth pursuing by Obama or even his supporters. [/QUOTE] Since there is no way to disprove McCain, I agree that it would be stupid for Obama to call him on it. That would be a very unChristian thing to do about a very Christian topic. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/63 "2008-08-19T15:50:22Z")
Orson Swindle, a fellow POW who shared a cell with McCain in Vietnam, has corroborated the story. He says that he remembers McCain telling it to him at the time. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/64 "2008-08-19T15:50:37Z")
Yes, almost as bad as appropriating someone else’s story of personal faith in order to build up your Christian bonafides. I agree that Obama himself should stay miles and miles away, just like McCain is staying away from Corsi. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/65 "2008-08-19T16:05:40Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Orson Swindle, a fellow POW who shared a cell with McCain in Vietnam, has corroborated the story. He says that he remembers McCain telling it to him at the time. [/QUOTE] Yeah, sure he does. I wonder how much he got paid. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/66 "2008-08-19T16:08:38Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Since there is no way to disprove McCain, I agree that it would be stupid for Obama to call him on it. That would be a very unChristian thing to do about a very Christian topic. [/QUOTE] It’s pretty unChristian to make up slf-serving bullshit stories to pander for votes as well. I agree that Obama can’t go near it, but I can still call bullshit it on it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/67 "2008-08-19T16:19:53Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Yeah, sure he does. I wonder how much he got paid. [/QUOTE] You know, it’s funny how you’ll reflexively attack the credibility of anyone opposed to you. In any case Swindle spent six years in captivity. Decorations include two Silver Stars, two Bronze Stars, two Purple Hearts and the POW Medal. And before you accuse him of being an automatic Republican flunky, it should be noted that he was one of the key staffers in Ross Perot’s bid for the White House in 1992. I don’t agree with him about everything by a long shot, but by all appearances he’s a decent sort. If you have evidence that he’s not, you ought to present it. In any case, he was there. He seems to back up the story. And frankly, this will probably put the thing to bed for most people. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/68 "2008-08-19T16:26:18Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Orson Swindle, a fellow POW who shared a cell with McCain in Vietnam, has corroborated the story. He says that he remembers McCain telling it to him at the time. [/QUOTE] Too bad he didn’t corroborate it [last May](http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=1372E056-3048-5C12-00A06112B1C61A64), when his buddy wasn’t under the gun about the story. I’d take his word for it more back then than now. > [@](#): > > “I don’t recall us talking specifically about our faith,” says Orson Swindle, one of McCain’s closest friends and a fellow POW. “We talked about our friends, families, our resistance posture, and that our country didn’t seem to have the will to win.” > > Belief in a higher power helped them survive the routine torture and daily indignities, Swindle says. > > “It would help us endure what we had to endure. But we knew God wasn’t going to come down and wave a magic wand.” ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/69 "2008-08-19T16:30:35Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] You know, it’s funny how you’ll reflexively attack the credibility of anyone opposed to you. In any case Swindle spent six years in captivity. Decorations include two Silver Stars, two Bronze Stars, two Purple Hearts and the POW Medal. And before you accuse him of being an automatic Republican flunky, it should be noted that he was one of the key staffers in Ross Perot’s bid for the White House in 1992. I don’t agree with him about everything by a long shot, but by all appearances he’s a decent sort. If you have evidence that he’s not, you ought to present it. In any case, he was there. He seems to back up the story. And frankly, this will probably put the thing to bed for most people. [/QUOTE] You mean besides the fact that his “non-partisan” non profit Citzens Against Governement Waste has ties to Jack Abramoff or that they have donated money to the McCain campaign? ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/70 "2008-08-19T16:31:18Z")
And regarding the Christmas-in-captivity book, where McCain recounts multiple anecdotes, but not this one, here’s [Andrew Sullivan](http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/salter-on-the-c.html#more) again: > [@](#): > > Now the reason this is weird is that it’s not just one memory out of countless ones. It’s a very specific Christmas memory about a character McCain recounts in other anecdotes - and was a significant enough memory to be packaged as a Christmas-themed campaign ad last year. But this riveting story which McCain “will never forget” didn’t occur to McCain when asked to come up with Christmas memories in captivity in 1995. Salter explains that McCain could easily have forgotten it because it was not “pivotal.” Watch the ad again and listen to McCain’s testimony from Saturday night. It sure sounds pivotal to me - something that would surely resonate deeply over the years. > > This is not about impugning McCain’s heroism. His decision to forgo early release in Vietnam - despite being subjected to “enhanced interrogation” - makes him a far, far better man than I and most of us will ever be. It is about how Christianism corrupts a campaign. And how even a man like McCain is susceptible to these pressures. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/71 "2008-08-19T16:32:11Z")
But Swindle was a POW. [/argument] ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/72 "2008-08-19T16:32:50Z")
“You know, it’s funny how you’ll reflexively attack the credibility of anyone opposed to you.” We’ve had too many years of good teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/73 "2008-08-19T16:41:05Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] You know, it’s funny how you’ll reflexively attack the credibility of anyone opposed to you. In any case Swindle spent six years in captivity. Decorations include two Silver Stars, two Bronze Stars, two Purple Hearts and the POW Medal. And before you accuse him of being an automatic Republican flunky, it should be noted that he was one of the key staffers in Ross Perot’s bid for the White House in 1992. I don’t agree with him about everything by a long shot, but by all appearances he’s a decent sort. If you have evidence that he’s not, you ought to present it. In any case, he was there. He seems to back up the story. And frankly, this will probably put the thing to bed for most people. [/QUOTE] You guys no longer have any credibility when it comes to touting military credentials. I don’t believe him. Sorry. It’s too convenient all of a sudden. I would assume that any of McCain’s old cell mates would back him up no matter what he said. That’s the way it works. They’re never going to contradict him. If he were to say they were all visited by Martians, I’m sure his buddies would back him. Those are the rules. ETA and according to **ArchiveGuy’s** cite, Swindle is contradicting his own earlier statements. I rest my case. These guys are going to cover each other’s backs no matter what. It’s not a dishonorable thing, it’s about a bond that we can’t imagine. But we can’t accept McCain’s buddies as objective sources. There’s no way they’d ever undermine him, regardless of the truth. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/74 "2008-08-19T16:45:26Z")
[QUOTE=stolichnaya] But Swindle was a POW. [/argument] [/QUOTE] Swift Boater Bud Day is also [corroborating the story](http://www.johnmccain.com/McCainReport/Read.aspx?guid=f6547446-2b73-4431-a974-edef0a0fe3f0#) (though this is the shoe version, not the stick version). But again, when he had the opportunity to tell the story back in 1999, he [didn’t](http://www.endpoliticsasusual.com/2008/08/mccains-christmas-story-ads.html). I think it would be more helpful if Day or Swindle had confirmed the story independently beforehand, because now it simply smells of circling the wagons. This is their friend, they went through all sorts of unimaginable shit together, so they have his back. Can’t say I blame them, but it doesn’t mean I have to find it convincing, either. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/75 "2008-08-19T16:49:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Swift Boater Bud Day… A self-discrediting qualification. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/76 "2008-08-19T18:30:23Z")
Swindle: Oh, Cripes, Johnny, I don’t remember whether you said that or not. Hell, half the time you were telling us funny stories, and half the time you were curled up in the corner and we were wondering if you were gonna live! Why don’t you ask me an easy one, like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? McCain: Oh, come on! You’ve got to remember it! It was Christmas! Swindle: Christmas, Shmistmas - we were in a fucking POW camp. It sucked! I barely remember 1970, and a good thing, too. Look, if you need me to remember, I’ll remember, OK? That’d be my guess of how it went down. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2008, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/77 "2008-08-20T07:48:55Z")
Has anybody ever seen the film [Barabbas](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055774/)? It’s a “whatever happened to the guy freed instead of Jesus?” mini-epic starring Anthony Quinn in the title role. I haven’t seen the movie in many years, but I do remember one scene that’s relevant: Barabbas (Quinn) becomes a slave to the Romans and when it’s noticed he can fight he is sent to train as a (what else for a NT epic?) gladiator along with a fellow slave, who is secretly Christian. Training at dear old Gladiators U. in Nero’s Rome (30 years has passed since the Crucifixion) Barabbas (who’s evidently just in incredible shape for a 60 year old) and his friend are dining when a guard (Ernest Borgnine) “accidentally” splashes a bit of water on the table where they’re eating and in reaching to dry it draws a cross with his wet finger in front of the Christian as a sign of recognition and announcement (then spills water again to erase it). Anyway, no idea if there’s a connection, but it’s the first thing the story made me think of. Of course a cross is not exactly the most imaginative of emblems- the guard could have been telling McCain his name is **t** huy or showing him a map (“there’s a crossroads up ahead”) or even drawing a stick person but deciding not to finish it, etc., if it happened at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2008, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/78 "2008-08-20T08:33:50Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] A self-discrediting qualification. [/QUOTE] Says the guy who’s frantically trying to ‘Swift Boat’ McCain. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/79 "2008-08-20T14:22:27Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Says the guy who’s frantically trying to ‘Swift Boat’ McCain. [/QUOTE] Oh, bullshit. All I did was observe that he can’t keep his stories straight. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455/80 "2008-08-20T15:11:20Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] Has anybody ever seen the film [Barabbas](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055774/)? [/QUOTE] What is it with you and gladiator flicks? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-mccain-make-up-the-cross-in-the-dirt-pow-story/460455.md?page=5)