# Did medieval Castles Stink? Medieval Bathroom Q... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 27, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701 "2005-09-27T17:07:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/1 "2005-09-27T17:07:06Z")
I’ve been doing some research lately on several castles in Brittain and France and I’ve yet to find any credible resource for telling me what the bathrooms were like. This is not a sick fettish or anything, I am simply wondering what they did with all the waste produced by the peoples living within those walls centuries ago? I’ve heard of latrines where gravity did all the work, and toilet holes went into some type of receptical or some such contraption. Anyone know what a medieval lu looks like or how they opporated? ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/2 "2005-09-27T17:10:11Z")
I don’t have a cite because I remember this from a filmloop they showed in my history class in 5th grade, but according to some guy who made an educational cartoon, people squatted over a ledge that was some stories up and did their business over the side, which then fell quite a ways into a pit below. Presumably there was some sewage system used to flush the waste from the pit eventually, but the cartoon didn’t go into that much detail. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/3 "2005-09-27T17:12:20Z")
I think it was in the Tower of England where the bathrooms were cantilevered out over the edge of the lower floors, so that waste dropped straight outside the walls. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/4 "2005-09-27T17:19:14Z")
I’ve been to a couple castles over yonder (Edzell is the only one I’m sure of) where they had interior bathrooms against the outside walls, and there was a slanted drain that emptied out into the moat… this probably discouraged people from swimming across the moat to sneak into the castle… ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/5 "2005-09-27T17:19:51Z")
When Queen Elizabeth I was given one of the first flush toilets in England by her godson, Sir John Harrington, she banished him from court after using it a few times because the smell from the cess pool was overpowering when the valve released. This would imply that the regular method had some form of odor control. In a castle the raw sewage would have been treated with maggots and worms (gross but effective) or removed by low servants or emptied into water as well. My relatives who used outhouses used lime to break it down. And of course the ladies and some of the men wore potpourri filled [pomanders](http://www.palacegallery.net/images/pomanders.jpg) which they may have held to their nose while eliminating. (Off the subject, but in some castles during flea infestations people also wore clothes with blood on them to attract all the fleas to the same spot.) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/6 "2005-09-27T17:21:47Z")
Castle toilets were know as _[garderobes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garderobe)_, small rooms that projected out of the castle wall. A hole beneath the seat allowed waste to drop in a cess pit, or into the moat. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/7 "2005-09-27T17:28:58Z")
Most of the time there was a person or persons designated as “waste-removal engineers.” They were tasked to shovel the manure and such like that. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/8 "2005-09-27T17:42:06Z")
In addition, nobles tended to move from castle to castle during the year, so workers could get rid of the stench. A fully staffed castle filled up the cesspools after a few months, forcing people to move on. ---
**Author:** ![swampbear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampbear/32/467_2.png) [@swampbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampbear)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/9 "2005-09-27T18:09:10Z")
For the first time, the google ads for mailing lists are appropriate for a thread. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/10 "2005-09-27T19:09:26Z")
No **lieu**? 😕 I was _certain_… ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/11 "2005-09-27T19:21:19Z")
In addition to garderobes, I’ve read that people also used to just go in the stairwells, or other secluded places. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/12 "2005-09-27T19:25:55Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > In addition to garderobes, I’ve read that people also used to just go in the stairwells, or other secluded places. The stairwells of Versailles were said to be the nastiest place in France. (There was a writer from a well-to-do French family [as in middle-class, not super rich] whose name I do not remember, but his family’s move up from the peasantry came from when they were chamber pot emptiers at Versailles; the people who tipped best got their pots emptied early while the cheapskates had it around all day, and this family made so much in the courtiers eagerness not to be stuck with full chamberpots that they moved into the middle class- I wish I could remember the name.) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/13 "2005-09-27T19:27:02Z")
That carried over until very recently. There are accounts of gents relieving themselves on the interior walls at the palace at Versailles. They place smelled like a cesspit because that’s just what it was. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/14 "2005-09-27T19:28:11Z")
Great minds, and all that, **Sampiro**! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/15 "2005-09-27T20:08:15Z")
And all this time I thought they had privies. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/16 "2005-09-27T20:38:01Z")
> [@Phlosphr](#): > > I’ve been doing some research lately on several castles in Brittain and France and I’ve yet to find any credible resource for telling me what the bathrooms were like. Depending on the castle I think chamber pots were the primary means of relieving one self and the waste was used as fertilizer. Marc ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/17 "2005-09-27T20:49:52Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > And all this time I thought they had privies. Privies? No. Privy councils, yes. As was noted above, moats were an effective defense, not because of alligators or drowning, but because they were sewers. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/18 "2005-09-27T21:04:06Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > When Queen Elizabeth I was given one of the first flush toilets in England by her godson, Sir John Harrington, she banished him from court after using it a few times because the smell from the cess pool was overpowering when the valve released. This would imply that the regular method had some form of odor control. Well, the thing also made a god-awful noise when it flushed, leading to snickers that Elizabeth found offensive. “There goes the Queen again!” Why use the awkward, noisy contraption when she had a nice, comfortable, private close stool? (A close stool was a box in which a chamberpot was placed. It had a padded seat on which to sit while using it. Henry VIII had one made of padded velvet decorated with jewels.) Elizabeth was also known to be very sensitive to smells. She once insulted a courtier or ambassador (I can’t recall which) by saying, “Phah! Thy boots stink!” Realize that the Medieval/Renaissance nose was probably less sensitive to the stenches around them. Think about when you go into the primate house at the zoo. For a moment, it seems like the stench will knock you over, but after a while, your nose becomes numbed to it. I’ve heard that astronauts returning to earth after breathing super-filtered air for a while are absolutely nauseated by the stench. We who live here don’t notice it, nor do we usually notice the smells of others. Think about it-- every part of your body is cleaned with a perfumed soap; you wash your hair with scented shampoo, and may put on cologne/aftershave/perfume/lotion on top of it. Your clothes are perfumed by the detergent. To someone not used to it, or sensitive to perfumes, that adds up to a lot of stink. Likewise the Renaissance: there were lots of sources of odors, which people probably tuned out. Bathing wasn’t as common as it is today. Many of the courtiers’ outfits were unwashable. Toothbrushes were unknown. (Some people chewed cloves to try to freshen their breath. Elizabeth I thought mistakenly that eating sweet things would make her breath smell sweet.) Houses were filthy, according to today’s standards. Rushes were going out of style, but they used to be scattered on the floor to catch food debris dropped on the floor, dog droppings, spit, and other foulness. In France, the king ordered crosses to be painted on interior walls in hopes that it would deter courtiers from pissing on them. Moats sometimes bcame\* solid\* with the waste dumped into them unless the person in charge of maintenance ordered them dredged. People in the cities dumped their chamberpots in the street. (It was said you could smell London miles before you saw it.) ---
**Author:** ![drmark2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@drmark2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drmark2000)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/19 "2005-09-27T22:39:46Z")
I visited a castle in Europe, i think Chillon in Switzerland, that was located on the shore of a lake. Its facilities were located at the shore edge of the castle, at least 100 feet above the water. So, people just dropped theirs straight into the drink. This wouldn’t necessarily mean that odor didn’t build up over time, requiring some kind of maintenance. And, it could make that childhood fear of falling into the toilet a genuine nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![Vlad\_Igor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Vlad\_Igor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vlad_Igor)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2005, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701/20 "2005-09-28T00:27:54Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Castle toilets were know as _[garderobes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garderobe)_, small rooms that projected out of the castle wall. A hole beneath the seat allowed waste to drop in a cess pit, or into the moat. I remember seeing those features on the outer wall of Haut Koenigsburg castle in Alsace. I don’t remember seeing that in the ruins of Alteschloss in Baden-Baden, though. Vlad/Igor [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-castles-stink-medieval-bathroom-q/323701.md?page=2)