# Did medieval lords have "right of the first night" with the local brides? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [August 19, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-lords-have-right-of-the-first-night-with-the-local-brides/631977 "2012-08-19T16:47:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-lords-have-right-of-the-first-night-with-the-local-brides/631977/41 "2012-08-25T16:08:22Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Local clerks are quite familiar with this concept, because you don’t have to be a member of the clergy to marry someone. Registering you with the state is what makes you legally married no matter who runs the show. Only in some states. Illinois, for example, does not have a registry for Officiants. Neither does Indiana (those two being the states where I do most of my weddings.) From people I’ve talked to, it’s actually a minority of states which have a registry, but I’m too lazy to google which ones right now. New York is…a mess. The State of New York does not have a registry, and has never been much of a problem. The \*city \*of New York has a bug up their ass about ULC, and has for 30 years and it’s been well known in the neopagan community for well over a decade. The City of New York does require registry, they have been known to not accept an Ordination Certificate from ULC, but they will accept a notarized letter on ULC letterhead to verify your ordination. Marriages by registered ULC ministers in New York City, as well as New York State, \*\*are \*\*currently valid. Period. But you have to make sure you’re \*registered \*in the city, and the mailed Certificate of Ordination may or may not be enough to prove ordination, depending on which clerk is standing on the other side of the counter the day you go in to register. Me, I said “fuck this nonsense” and got ordained through a different internet ordaining church, and have never had a single problem (except that my marriages tend not to stick; 1/3 of them have gotten divorced since. ☹ 'Though that’s actually a good sign, legally, that their marriages were considered valid, or they wouldn’t have been able to get divorces.) > **[Can Laypersons Ordained Online as Universal Life Church Ministers, or the...](https://verdict.justia.com/2011/11/21/can-laypersons-ordained-online-as-universal-life-church-ministers-or-the-like-officiate-at-weddings)** > > In the second of a two-part series of columns raising questions about the legal effect of online ordination, Justia columnist and Hofstra law professor Joanna Grossman discusses whether persons who ar... > [@](#): > > The state cannot determine what the requirements to be a member of the preisthood. Only a church can make you a preist, you can even make yourself one by founding your own church. Things like this are why non believers think religion is such a crock sometimes. If a state can say who is and is not a preist, it is now regulating religious views. > > Define preisthood? What criteria measure “preisty enough”, How many other well known religions still qualify? > > If there are state laws saying certain religions can or cannot have preists that can marry, they have not been challenged, as none of the would stand up to a real constitutional challenge. And they have been, repeatedly, challenged in court. Some decisions go one way, some the other. See the article above for more details. ---
**Author:** ![svd678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@svd678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/svd678)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-lords-have-right-of-the-first-night-with-the-local-brides/631977/42 "2012-08-27T05:42:32Z")
I doubt the legal question being raised is about whether a given religion will have its marriages recognized; the question is whether the “ordaining” party is a real religion. Since the ULC is not a real religion, its certificate-holders are not qualified to perform weddings. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-lords-have-right-of-the-first-night-with-the-local-brides/631977/43 "2012-08-27T11:08:56Z")
> [@svd678](#): > > Since the ULC is not a real religion, its certificate-holders are not qualified to perform weddings. So, **you’re** the dude who decides which religion is real and which isn’t? Cool! Always wanted to meetcha. Time to address a question or three? Is your PhD in Theology or a related field? Does Scientology meet your criteria and if not ho do you avoid the wrath of Cruise? Which sebsects of Christianity do you recognize? How could a religion that outlaws bacon be real? Pagans; MC or religion? On second thought, maybe a “Ask The Religion Specialist” thread would better handle this. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Algarve\_Peter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Algarve\_Peter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algarve_Peter)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-lords-have-right-of-the-first-night-with-the-local-brides/631977/44 "2012-08-27T11:27:00Z")
It is reported that virginity mattered to the Romans. 1. On their way home after a wedding, it was the business of one of the priests I believe to deflower the bride before she reached her new home. Perhaps this custom had influence on the later myth which Cecil Adams writes of. 2. If for reasons of state it was deemed necessary to execute a woman, it was of importance that she be not a virgin at the time of execution. It was therefore one of the tasks of the executioner to ensure the loss of virginity of the woman. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-lords-have-right-of-the-first-night-with-the-local-brides/631977/45 "2012-08-27T15:54:11Z")
You got cites for either of those claims? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-lords-have-right-of-the-first-night-with-the-local-brides/631977/46 "2012-08-27T16:44:56Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > You got cites for either of those claims? Well, I read the latter claim in I Claudius … And as a whopping great rumor, back in the middle ages there were statues with leather covered phalusses [or whatever the damned plural noun happens to be] that were used to deflower women, and as I heard it, the statues were of various saints. Of course my low and coarse mind wondered if all the saint statues were male 😃 ] Actually, there are remnants of Rome’s legal code floating around, so I would imagine it may actually be determinable. Hm, Crime and Punishment in Ancient Rome, 1996, Richard Bauman might have the info, it is on Google Books so I can see it actually has footnotes and a bibliography … of course I would have to buy the book so I could see what the info actually is because of course the 2 segments that have the info are of course not included in the pages able to be viewed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-medieval-lords-have-right-of-the-first-night-with-the-local-brides/631977.md?page=2)