In Virginia (at least 10 years ago, when I was taking the Bar), if there’s a problem with the formalities of the marriage but it would be a legal marriage otherwise (not incestuous, neither party married to someone else, the usual stuff), and at least one of the parties believes the marriage was legal, then consummation converts it into a fully legal marriage, neither void nor voidable.
–Cliffy
This got me interested in the question, and I looked into it a bit further. While Cliffy’s post is a bit of an overstatement of the Virginia law, it’s essentially correct in that the parties’ good faith and consummation of the marriage will cure any defect in the celebrant’s authority to solemnize marriages.
What about the other two states, North Carolina and New York, where ULC ministers have been held unable to solemnize marriages? In North Carolina an improperly solemnized marriage is voidable but not void; in other words, one of the parties must take action to annul the marriage, and if neither does, then they’re still married. Under some circumstances, a party who has previously affirmed the marriage may be estopped from obtaining an annulment. New York is much more hard-line: if the celebrant at your wedding was a ULC minister then the whole process was void outright and you’re not married.
On my Pontoon boat I have a sign that reads:
Or words to that effect.
Consumation?, you bet!
Aaaaaand … just to pour cold water on that, let’s go to Cecil!
Hmmmm … looking to the bottom of that article, I see:
HAH!
Pretty clever way to get leave when it’s not due, eh? Did the skipper buy it?
I’m not sure how it’s a way to get leave. He asked for his leave to be cancelled so he wouldn’t have to go home to his parents. So my friend agreed to cancel it but said that he didn’t know if future COs would go along with it.
Uncle Cecil disagrees:
[QUOTE=Cecil Adams]
Ministers and the like aren’t licensed; should the officiant in fact be bogus, the marriage is still valid, as long as you believed his/her credentials to be genuine.
[/QUOTE]
Powers &8^]
Wow, that’s an incredibly bad answer from Cecil in 1981. His standards have risen a lot in the intervening 31 years.
The real answer is that this is entirely dependent on state law. If you’re in New York State, and your officiant was a minister of the Universal Life Church, then you’re out of luck (or maybe in luck, depending on what’s going on for you): You are not legally married. If you’re in Virginia and have consummated the marriage, then your marriage is valid, notwithstanding the unqualified officiant. For other states, your mileage will vary, with the North Carolina situation typical (the marriage is voidable but not void).
It’s a Chicago newspaper column. His answer may have been appropriate for Illinois.
since when does the government set ordinatii’m requirements or determine what religions can or cannot officially marry anyone. i was under the impression that a minister had to apply with the county clerks office for a kind of “marriage officiant” permit allowing you to endorse marriage licences on behalf of the county/state no actual religion or church affilliation was part of any requirement.
this may just be in CA
A friend had some minor roadblocks in Las Vegas, of all places, but she eventually was able to do a wedding. In Pennsylvania I’ve inquired each time and have never had a problem.
Every church has specific requirements for ordination. A college degree, working within the order, whatever. My church requires you to click “submit”.
I should add, however, that this friend of mine is someone whose stories I tend to take with a grain of salt, if you know what I mean.
I’m reminded of a short story (IIRC, “Islands In The Sea” by Harry Turtledove) in which the Bulgar Khan decides that he’ll have to pick a side and invites Christian and Muslim emissaries to make their case. One of the things he’ll have to decide is which will be harder to give up: polygamy or alcohol.
To the original OP
My wife is from Serbia and Serbs claim that the ‘right of the first night’ was a very real thing. Most of Serbia was under the Ottoman Empire for about 400 years. And the local Pasha (or other high-ranking representative of the empire) would demand to sleep with brides the first night. Only non-muslim brides were expected to submit to the local Pasha though.
There were ways to avoid this, they say. On my wife’s mother’s side, they supposedly would hide their daughters until after marriage and consummation. This, they claim, is why they have more lighter skin blondes on that side of the family. My father-in-law’s family did not do the same and have darker features, which my wife exhibits.
A quick google search shows that other people have about as much evidence as i do that this actually happened (meaning purely anecdotal). One claimed that it was the landlords (called beg or aga being more like a feudal lord) who had this right. Another source was Stormfront…so yeah.
The objection raised by some courts is that anyone can get a certificate that he or she is a minister of the Universal Life Church by simply paying a small fee, leading them to question to bona fides of ULC minister status.
Lower courts in Pennsylvania have split on whether a ULC minister can solemnize marriages in that state, so the issue continues to be unsettled there. Local clerks are not reliable guides in these matters.
No. Actually the couple has to go get remarried where they thought they were married the first time. If it’s simply a matter of bad paperwork and not an unauthorized officiate, then they have to find the same person who performed the original ceremony, likely now quite old and decrepit. The couple must then have a fight, generally blaming each other for causing the original marriage to be invalid to start with. The couple will look like they’ll never be legally married, but then the decrepit old officiate’s spouse will show up and explain how they’ve been married for over 50 years and how they remember the couple’s first marriage attempt and how much in love they seemed. This thaws the hearts of the feuding couple who now realize how much in love they are, and the marriage is completed. This should only require one episode, so 22 minutes tops.
Maybe not, but I feel I’ve done my share by asking them. And how dare the state question my religious beliefs!? I could condemn them to HELL!!!:mad:
Local clerks are quite familiar with this concept, because you don’t have to be a member of the clergy to marry someone. Registering you with the state is what makes you legally married no matter who runs the show. The state cannot determine what the requirements to be a member of the preisthood. Only a church can make you a preist, you can even make yourself one by founding your own church. Things like this are why non believers think religion is such a crock sometimes. If a state can say who is and is not a preist, it is now regulating religious views.
Define preisthood? What criteria measure “preisty enough”, How many other well known religions still qualify?
If there are state laws saying certain religions can or cannot have preists that can marry, they have not been challenged, as none of the would stand up to a real constitutional challenge.